I'm confused about what I have here.

Sporterized and unofficial modified Krags
Warpspasm
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:17 pm

I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Warpspasm »

I just got my first Krag today, but I'm not actually sure what I have. It's in, what I think is, an actual 1896 saddle ring carbine stock. The receiver has the serial number 80266, which from what I gather means it should be an 1898 rifle. BUT, the receiver is stamped Model 1896. The bore is bright and shiny with strong rifling and slugs at .308. The barrel measures roughly 22.25 inches and does not have a carbine front sight and tapers down to .608 inches at the muzzle end. It has an 1903 style front sight.

It has obviously been sporterized. I'm pretty sure it has been reblued, the stock has been sanded, so there are no markings and the bolt handle has been highly polished. Sling swivels were installed professionally. The only really bad things is the butt stock as had about .3 inches cut off to have a rubber recoil pad installed. It was a straight cut to remove the curve at the bottom. Interestingly enough, whoever did it cut off the top tab where the screw attaches it to the stock and left that in the inlet where it belongs. Because the butt was shortened, so is the little tab he left there. I think the only way to fix it will be to get the appropriate butt plate, cut off the tab and weld on the original tab which has been shortened. Then, put the curve back on the bottom of the butt stock. I'm open to suggestions on this one.
Attachments
KC5Small.jpg
KC5Small.jpg (420.7 KiB) Viewed 1934 times
KC6.jpg
KC6.jpg (254.87 KiB) Viewed 1934 times
KC8.jpg
KC8.jpg (140.6 KiB) Viewed 1934 times
KC1.jpg
KC1.jpg (792.75 KiB) Viewed 1934 times
Last edited by Warpspasm on Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by FredC »

You sure have a nice looking sporter there. I am not the expert on identifying stuff, but sometimes 6's and 8's get misread on the model number A better photo of the area under the bolt handle will clear up some things, both on the receiver and stock.

My first impression is would be a lot of work to get into back to any kind of armory configuration. The cut off butt plate fills the gap and makes it look presentable. Unless the length of pull needs to be changed to make it fit you, I would be inclined to keep it as is. Does the sight have any "C"s on it?

A closer look at the front barrel band would be interesting.

Whig
Posts: 1984
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Whig »

Mr. Warp,

Welcome to KCA! We love looking at new Krag posts and hope to help you learn more about what you have acquired.

Fred has mentioned two important things. The Krag you have is a Model 1896 that had a deeply stamped "6" that resembles an "8". Your sporterized carbine was made in September 1897 at Springfield Armory. The stock was a nice carbine stock with the base of a sling and ring for cavalry use. The ring is missing. The metal has been refinished quite nicely but, alas, the carbine has no real collector's value since it has been permanently altered from original manufacture. As Fred said, I would keep it the way it is, make sure it is safe to shoot, and shoot it or use it for hunting. Even Krags with worn out or pitted bores can still shoot well if the rifling is still somewhat intact.

Save your money and buy an unmolested Krag so you can have a correct military Krag and a sporterized Krag.

So, you have a nice looking sporterized Krag carbine. If the rear sight has been stamped with a "c", it may be a correct carbine rear sight.

Thanks for sharing. Hope this helps some.

Warpspasm
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:17 pm

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Warpspasm »

Thanks for the quick response.
I didn't really expect any collector value from this gun, but I've always wanted one. I think it's interesting that the serial number is in the 1898 range, but the carbine is actually an 1896. I ordered a steel butt plate from Numerich today and I'm pretty confident I can get it to work. The rifle came with an original saddle ring assembly and it cleaned it up and replaced the plate that was on there. It looks great. Do you think this has a cut down rifle barrel or is it a carbine barrel? The bore is pristine .

Whig
Posts: 1984
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Whig »

I don't have my records in front of me right now but the M1898 rifles did not officially start until around serial number 109,000. The M1898 carbines started around the 120,000 range serial number. Roughly, again. Someone else might be able to be more precise but your serial number matches the receiver stamping of Model 1896. (I think the later M1896 carbines were made up into the high 80 thousands.) It probably did start out as a carbine and had a replacement cut down rifle barrel put on with an after market front sight. Official carbine barrels are exactly 22 inches from the front of the closed bolt face to the end of the muzzle. Also, it would be quite unusual to find a true M1896 carbine or rifle barrel with a "pristine" bore. Great for shooting now, though!

Warpspasm
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:17 pm

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Warpspasm »

Whig wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:27 am I don't have my records in front of me right now but the M1898 rifles did not officially start until around serial number 109,000. The M1898 carbines started around the 120,000 range serial number. Roughly, again. Someone else might be able to be more precise but your serial number matches the receiver stamping of Model 1896. (I think the later M1896 carbines were made up into the high 80 thousands.) It probably did start out as a carbine and had a replacement cut down rifle barrel put on with an after market front sight. Official carbine barrels are exactly 22 inches from the front of the closed bolt face to the end of the muzzle. Also, it would be quite unusual to find a true M1896 carbine or rifle barrel with a "pristine" bore. Great for shooting now, though!
Thanks! Next question. If I decided to put a handguard on this carbine (assuming I could find one) would I use a 1896 carbine handguard or because of my rear sight, an 1898 handguard? Here's a link to some handguards I found. Of course they're out of stock. https://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=124

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9822
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by butlersrangers »

'Warpspasm' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

Your Krag barreled/receiver, #80266, was manufactured around October or November 1897.
The serial number makes it very likely that it was originally a U.S. model 1896 rifle,
that was later 'cut-down', by a civilian gun-smith or hobbyist, and put into a surplus carbine stock.

The 22 1/4 inch barrel and 1903 front-sight make this conclusion rather a certainty.

There are two main problems with fitting an original Krag butt-plate to your carbine stock:

1. It now has the wrong contour (flat, rather than with a bit of a 'recurve' at the toe).

2. Because your stock is 'shortened', an original butt-plate will be too long from the heel to the toe.

Even by fitting the tang of an original butt-plate to your stock and reshaping the plate contour, the toe of the plate will extend way beyond the wood.

Rather than altering a still original Krag butt-plate, I would recommend finding one that has already been 'altered'.
Lots of 'altered' plates, from sportered stocks, reside in junk boxes. Possibly a KCA member has one to donate?

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9822
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by butlersrangers »

'Warpspasm' - Looking at your photos again, I don't think your front-sight is a 1903 Springfield front-sight.

It appears more like the sights made by the Stokes-Kirk (Sporting Goods) Company in Philadelphia, back before WW-2.
This company had lots of surplus Krag parts and 'cobbled' together inexpensive utility Krags, along 'carbine lines'.

They shortened lots of Krag rifle barrels and drove a crude sheet-metal 'banded' front-sight, onto the new muzzle.
Attachments
aftermarket_FS2.jpg
aftermarket_FS2.jpg (12.49 KiB) Viewed 1893 times

Whig
Posts: 1984
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 am

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by Whig »

Your question about hand guards is very appropriate. The hand guard has to be correct for the exact Krag rear sight that you have. All of the Krag rear sights have the same screw holes but may require slightly different screws depending on which sight you mount. The Krags are known for quite a variety of sight changes over their short military service but they are inter changeable. It is important to understand, also, that different rear sights require different front sight blades. Your after market front sight could be too high for your rear sight and might need to be filed down or altered. (It could also be too low but probably not-just need to test on targets.)

The picture below is from the pictures page for this KCA website. That link is given below also. Check out the pictures of the rear sights and hand guards to learn more about what you have and need. ("R" is rifle and "C" is carbine-referring to the sight, not the firearm it's on.)

keep us informed of any progress!

http://kragcollectorsassociation.org/photos/
Attachments
handguards.jpg
handguards.jpg (59.12 KiB) Viewed 1880 times

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9822
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: I'm confused about what I have here.

Post by butlersrangers »

The model 1896 carbine stock, that you have, places the barrel-band 'further back' than the barrel-band on Krag rifle stocks and model 1899 carbine stocks.
(An original model 1898 carbine stock shares the dimensions and components of the 1896 carbine stock).

Differences in barrel-band placement are easily seen by how close the barrel-band is to the rear sight.

Krag rifles and model 1899 carbines have their barrel-band further forward than on model 1896 carbines.

(BTW - Your Krag is actually wearing a model 1899 carbine barrel-band and not the correct 'sight protecting' barrel-band of the original model 1896 and 1898 carbines).

In its current configuration, no U.S. Krag hand-guard will fit and work on your Krag.

A model 1896 carbine hand-guard would require a model 1896 type of rear-sight and a model 1896 carbine barrel-band, for fit and retention.

IMHO - For shooting purposes, your current 1902 or 1898 rear-sight is a better sight than the 1896 sight.
(Close Detailed pictures of your rear and front sights would allow better identification).

BTW - It is a Mortal Sin to alter or butcher a good & functional original Krag hand-guard. It is only permissible to alter one that is already ruined!

Attached photo shows a model 1896 (rifle) sight with an 1896 carbine stock, hand-guard and barrel-band. The correct carbine sight looks similar, but, is graduated to '20' and has other subtle differences and "c" markings.
Attachments
a new g sight.jpg
a new g sight.jpg (154.77 KiB) Viewed 1872 times
Last edited by butlersrangers on Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Post Reply