Long Range Chances

[psteinmayer]

As always... My friends here at KCA are the BEST! Thank you so very much for your help and understanding. Like I said, this is all so new to me, and I know it'll be great once I get it all together. Usually, I can go out and shoot and be pretty successful at it... and have been so far. But In this case, I don't want to make any mistakes or look like a fool (which I usually am).

I have a new blade on the way which is shorter than standard, and I'll further reduce it based on your recommendations. I'll be sighting at 100 yards, and hopefully I'll get it all set.

I cannot thank you enough Para!!!

A foot note:. The friend sending me the sight blade is also a fellow Krag shooter, and he joked "You're not going to shoot your Krag at 1000 yards?". We had a good chuckle over that! ;D

[Parashooter]

. . . he joked "You're not going to shoot your Krag at 1000 yards?". We had a good chuckle over that! ;D
What's so funny? :-?

If you have a good Krag with 1901 or 1902 sights, you might have a better time at 1000 yards than with the 03A3 - and you won't have to modify the as-issued configuration.

All you need is good VLD bullets with a high BC, like the Berger 185-grain in the table below. Bullet info at: http://bergerbullets.com/product/30-cal-185-gr-juggernaut-target/

QuickLOAD estimates getting a 185 up to 2450 fps is a relatively easy job for a 30" Krag. 42.8 grains of IMR 4350, OAL 3.2" could be one way to do it well below CIP Pmax of 3250 bar (piezo transducer - equivalent to ~39000 CUP). Supersonic all the way - and less wind drift than your 30/06 loads with the 175's and H4831SC.

Table below shows calculated ballistics for a such a load at Viale in summer. Compare to the tables in reply #31 on this topic to see how the old Krag can compete!

[Baltimoreed]

I seriously doubt that my V-V Tin Star Krag loads would even go 1000 yards. But they seem to do ok at 100. Brings to mind another great movie line, a mans got to know his limitations.

[psteinmayer]

What's so funny? :-?

If you have a good Krag with 1901 or 1902 sights, you might have a better time at 1000 yards than with the 03A3 - and you won't have to modify the as-issued configuration.

Hmmmmmmm Now you got me thinking... I bet I'd be the only Krag shooting in the LR Match! Maybe I should rethink this!

[Parashooter]

All depends on how your Krag groups with VLD's. If it's as good as your A3, why not use a real rifle instead of that stamped-out war baby!?

Here's some text from Berger's web page on their 185 "Juggernaut" -

Berger Juggernaut Target Bullets utilize Bergers industry-leading hybrid ogive, which blends tangent and secant designs to optimize efficiency, reduce wind-drift, and minimize sensitivity to seating depth. Its name was derived from its ability to move from transonic stage to subsonic with little disruption, where most bullets see an accelerated decrease in accuracy at these extreme long ranges. Juggernaut Target Bullets are competition proven and a favorite amongst todays top Mil/LE professionals, long range competition shooters and others for range, target, and tactical applications.

Sounds interesting! :-?

[butlersrangers]

'Parashooter' - A maybe naive thought regarding drift with the 185 grain Berger "Juggernaut" match bullet and adjusting Krag rifle rear-sight windage.

Your table shows a rather uniform drift, (to the right, I'm sure), out to 1,000 yards.

I imagine the Berger bullet would depart the Krag bore angled to the Left, (probably due to barrel harmonics), if things followed the pattern found in Ordnance Department testing, conducted in the mid to late 1890's.

IIRC - Krag projectiles moved to the Left significantly as range increased. However, at around 1,000 yards bullet drift had brought the projectile back toward the Right and it actually crossed the 'center line' and continued drifting to the Right.

Unless I'm terribly missing something, wouldn't the Krag sight windage adjustment have to take into account the angling of the projectile to the Left, as well the bullet's rotational drift to the Right?

[Parashooter]

I suspect you've misinterpreted "Drift" in the table. This is not gyroscopic drift (a still-air constant) but wind drift, the effect of the fact that the bullet is moving through a fluid (air) which may itself be in motion relative to the stationary rifle and target.

The posted tables are calculated to show the displacement of POI from still-air zero (already adjusted for gyroscopic drift) as the result of a 10mph 90-degree crosswind - an arbitrary but useful fiction from which one can extrapolate the actual "windage" required in a wind of different speed and angle. Such information is critical in long-range competition where a gentle breeze can move one's otherwise-perfect shot over to an adjacent target at 1000 yards.

Image below is Hatcher's concise explanation of gyroscopic drift. For a more thorough discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics#Gyroscopic_drift_(Spin_drift) and/or http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/42.cfm

[butlersrangers]

Thank you 'parashooter' for the additional information and explanations. I totally missed that the drift figures, in the tables you supplied, were caused and based on a 10 mph crosswind.

It is interesting that Hatcher states the 'gyroscopic drift' of the bullet to the Right, due to bullet rotation, is only about 6.7 inches at 1,000 yards (with .30-06/ M-2 bullet)
Maybe the Krag rifle initially sending a projectile to the Left, but, the bullet drifting to the Right and crossing the 'center line' at around the 1,000 yard mark, isn't a big deal and rather fortunate.

It appears good wind 'doping' is the critical factor at 1,000 yards.

[psteinmayer]

This is all quite fascinating! So here's an interesting thought: Since the Long Range Match consists of two firings (first the Critchfield Match, and immediately after, the Viale Commemorative Match), what if I fire the 1903A3 in the Critchfield and the Krag in the Viale Commemorative? I may not win... but I'll bet I'll be talked about!

In all seriousness, shooting the Krag really sounds like an interesting proposition. Since I have 200 of the Hornady 178 grain ELD-Match bullets, what would the chances be if I shot those out of the Krag? What would my load, pressures and ballistics look like? I may just do that instead. It might actually simplify things for me. I have 100 new Graf cases, and I'll order 100 more (if I'm going to shoot at near max pressure, I'd want new brass).

According to the Hodgdon site, a 180 grain bullet loaded with 46.0 grains (compressed) of IMR-4350 should achieve 2,445 FPS at 38,700 CUP. This is listed as their max load. Loaded with 49.0 grains (compressed) of 4831 should give 2,425 FPS at 35,900 CUP (also listed as max). Since I have 2 pounds of the H4831SC, I might like to used that powder for this.

Your thoughts?

[psteinmayer]

Ok... after a wonderful phone conversation with a very smart and very nice fellow KCA member, I've decided that I'm going to shoot the 1903A3 in the Long Range Matches. It just groups much better than my Krag (sorry guys).