Thanks for 'splaining that target!
Looks like you're ready to score well at 1000, Paul!
Great shooting.
Long Range Chances
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psteinmayer
- Posts: 2681
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Re: Long Range Chances
I de-capped the brass and inspected them pretty closely. Again, no bulging or signs of excess pressure. However, I fired 15 rounds and there were three primers that had slightly flattened (a tiny hint of mushrooming). The cases were all LC 72 except one HXP 77.
Now, I see this often in my 7.5 mm Swiss reloads, and those I reload with Berdan primers, and I attribute it to slightly loose primers. Again, I never see any other signs of excess pressure.
Do you think these three primers are an indication of a pending problem? Or is this just because of the "Hot" loads, and possibly slightly loose primers? FWIW, I always use primer sealant.
Now, I see this often in my 7.5 mm Swiss reloads, and those I reload with Berdan primers, and I attribute it to slightly loose primers. Again, I never see any other signs of excess pressure.
Do you think these three primers are an indication of a pending problem? Or is this just because of the "Hot" loads, and possibly slightly loose primers? FWIW, I always use primer sealant.
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Clcustom1911
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:59 pm
Re: Long Range Chances
Great thread. Lots of information here. Some primer flattening here and there is no problem. If it was combined with sticky extraction or sticky bolt lift... that's a problem. Additionally, you may have a bit or catering as an additional sign.
If the brass was on its first or second firing, it it still stretching ever-so-much to fill the chamber in all directions. That extra little bit of space allows the primer to back out just a hair as pressure builds and it expands a bit since the side walls of the primer are not supported by the primer pocket..., then the casing moves back under the rising pressure curve and pushes back onto the primer.
I personally think brass becomes the most consistent in a rifle after it has been fired in that rifle 3-4 times and only being neck sized each time.
As an aside..... When I shot .308, I shot just the 175g Matchking out to 1200 yards. I was pushing mine right about 2700 fps out of a 26" barrel and just barely off the lands (no more than .010"). It hammered 2MOA steel at 1000 all day long. Different cartridge aside, the velocity was was kept me consistent at that distance.
I know its more money, but for long range shooting, a chronograph is a nearly indispensable tool. It allows you to collect the necessary data (standard deviation and extreme spread) to really make to most of Long distance.
I use a Magnetospeed Sporter which is the cheaper version at $179. Yes, it changes your POI while it's on because it's changing the barrel harmonics. But the POI shift is consistent, I.e. my POI shifts up 5 moa on my Tikka T3x with its "lite" contour barrel. The group size is the same with the MagSpeed on or off the barrel.
So, whenever I shoot a load development series, I don't "zero" the rifle with the thing on. It gets zero'd once I pick the load after the mad scientist portion is done.
If the brass was on its first or second firing, it it still stretching ever-so-much to fill the chamber in all directions. That extra little bit of space allows the primer to back out just a hair as pressure builds and it expands a bit since the side walls of the primer are not supported by the primer pocket..., then the casing moves back under the rising pressure curve and pushes back onto the primer.
I personally think brass becomes the most consistent in a rifle after it has been fired in that rifle 3-4 times and only being neck sized each time.
As an aside..... When I shot .308, I shot just the 175g Matchking out to 1200 yards. I was pushing mine right about 2700 fps out of a 26" barrel and just barely off the lands (no more than .010"). It hammered 2MOA steel at 1000 all day long. Different cartridge aside, the velocity was was kept me consistent at that distance.
I know its more money, but for long range shooting, a chronograph is a nearly indispensable tool. It allows you to collect the necessary data (standard deviation and extreme spread) to really make to most of Long distance.
I use a Magnetospeed Sporter which is the cheaper version at $179. Yes, it changes your POI while it's on because it's changing the barrel harmonics. But the POI shift is consistent, I.e. my POI shifts up 5 moa on my Tikka T3x with its "lite" contour barrel. The group size is the same with the MagSpeed on or off the barrel.
So, whenever I shoot a load development series, I don't "zero" the rifle with the thing on. It gets zero'd once I pick the load after the mad scientist portion is done.
Re: Long Range Chances
... So, whenever I shoot a load development series, I don't "zero" the rifle with the thing on. It gets zero'd once I pick the load after the mad scientist portion is done.
That is good thinking. I would have made that mistake.
Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). Liberty Works Radio
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psteinmayer
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Re: Long Range Chances
The Lake City was from a lot I purchased in bulk a couple years ago on Vender's Row... and as far as I know was all once fired. I'm assuming it was all machine gun as several have slightly off center flash holes (I've been told that it's an indication of MG brass). Perhaps this is why military primers are crimped.
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psteinmayer
- Posts: 2681
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am
Re: Long Range Chances
Howdy all!
Well, the Long Range Match was a success. My son and I shot both the Viale and Critchfield LR Matches. I took 200 rounds with us, and between the two of us over the course of the two matches, we shot about 140 rounds total. All were the 178 gr ELD-Match bullet with 60.0 grains of H4831SC and a CCI #34 Mil Spec primer. we had some slightly flattened primers, but nothing alarming. The gun performed well. The target was nearly impossible to see through the iron sights, but we managed by locating the adjacent target numbers and then sighted between them, which put us on our target. It took me 12 shots to get on paper, but when I did, we knew where our hold was after that. Those 178s did a nice job of cutting through the wind, although we did have to correct a little. There were a few misses... and my son hit the berm twice and cross fired once, LOL. Above all... we had a lot of FUN!!!
The picture shows me preparing for a shot!
Well, the Long Range Match was a success. My son and I shot both the Viale and Critchfield LR Matches. I took 200 rounds with us, and between the two of us over the course of the two matches, we shot about 140 rounds total. All were the 178 gr ELD-Match bullet with 60.0 grains of H4831SC and a CCI #34 Mil Spec primer. we had some slightly flattened primers, but nothing alarming. The gun performed well. The target was nearly impossible to see through the iron sights, but we managed by locating the adjacent target numbers and then sighted between them, which put us on our target. It took me 12 shots to get on paper, but when I did, we knew where our hold was after that. Those 178s did a nice job of cutting through the wind, although we did have to correct a little. There were a few misses... and my son hit the berm twice and cross fired once, LOL. Above all... we had a lot of FUN!!!
The picture shows me preparing for a shot!
Re: Long Range Chances
Paul,
Success aka "fun" is what it's all about! Yelp, 1000 yds can be a little tough on the eyes.
Vic
Success aka "fun" is what it's all about! Yelp, 1000 yds can be a little tough on the eyes.
Vic
Preparedness + Opportunity= Luck
NRA Benefactor Member
KY & WV State Rifle & Pistol Association Life Member
NRA Benefactor Member
KY & WV State Rifle & Pistol Association Life Member
Re: Long Range Chances
Paul, sounds great and I wish I was ready and able to shoot with you.
Playing ignorant, which I am,...what firearms were the two of you shooting at this long range? What size target were you shooting at? It must have been impossible to see with open sights at 1000 yards!
How many sighters did they allow?
Sorry, I'm just not familiar with anything at Perry.
Thanks and great job to both of you!
Playing ignorant, which I am,...what firearms were the two of you shooting at this long range? What size target were you shooting at? It must have been impossible to see with open sights at 1000 yards!
How many sighters did they allow?
Sorry, I'm just not familiar with anything at Perry.
Thanks and great job to both of you!
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psteinmayer
- Posts: 2681
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am
Re: Long Range Chances
Whig, The target WAS nearly impossible to see! The X ring is 12 inches across, and the 8 ring (the largest of black) was about 48 inches. The 7 ring was the largest ring, and if you were outside of that ON paper, you scored a 6. The target itself was (estimating) about 6 foot square! Once we found our hold (through the help of a Marine with a very large pair of binoculars), the front sight blade completely covered the target, so our hold with zero wind was between the adjacent targets with a top frame hold (the top of the blade even with the top of the target frame). Believe me when I say that it was VERY HARD to achieve that because just the mirage of heat coming off the field blurred the targets! LR shooting is a whole different game!!!
We shot my 1903A3, and our ammo was detailed earlier. We were competing against Long Range rifles, Match rifles and Palma rifles. They allowed unlimited sighters, but you had to fire 20 shots for record and you only had 30 minutes to do it all... so you didn't want to fire too many sighters. In the second match, once we confirmed that out hold hadn't changed, we shot for record after 5 or so sighters.
Another thing to note: There is NO coaching... so your scorer can't call out your shots once you've indicated that you're shooting for record. You MUST have a spotting scope just so you can see where your shots are hitting. Ron and I only had one scope... so I wound up buying a second, and way more expensive scope for that purpose! If you are by yourself, one scope is enough because your scorer will use his for scoring.
We shot my 1903A3, and our ammo was detailed earlier. We were competing against Long Range rifles, Match rifles and Palma rifles. They allowed unlimited sighters, but you had to fire 20 shots for record and you only had 30 minutes to do it all... so you didn't want to fire too many sighters. In the second match, once we confirmed that out hold hadn't changed, we shot for record after 5 or so sighters.
Another thing to note: There is NO coaching... so your scorer can't call out your shots once you've indicated that you're shooting for record. You MUST have a spotting scope just so you can see where your shots are hitting. Ron and I only had one scope... so I wound up buying a second, and way more expensive scope for that purpose! If you are by yourself, one scope is enough because your scorer will use his for scoring.