Model 1863 Type II "1864" Springfield musket

[butlersrangers]

Well, it certainly appears to be a very decent original Springfield Rifled-Musket.

$850 is a bargain.

I don't agree with the 'Militia due to lack of cartouche conclusion'. Most of the Union Regiments, raised during the conflict, were State Regiments (Like '24th Michigan', '69th New York', '110th Ohio').

[Jeremy T Garner]

Thank you Chuck. I truly appreciate all the help I can get. The friend of mine runs an antique arms business and he mentioned the market is soft on them so perhaps he's looking at it from another angle than I am. I was drawn to the rifle immediately the first time and upon closer examination the second time around it actually looked even better. The bore has great rifling remaining and not nearly as much erosion as I first thought. Brought a bore light and ran my fingers inside the bore this time around. I'm not real sure why beyond the lack of cartouche he thought what he did about the militia but both he and his partner came to the same conclusion almost immediately. I ended up taking the next two days off as well from work for a short vacation as my dad is in town celebrating my birthday. I will be doing additional research and will most likely pull the trigger on it if the consensus is its a bargain from all of you kind fellows. :)

[butlersrangers]

Just MHO, but, it is possible your friends are over generalizing and confusing CW period markings with 1873 Springfield type cartouches.
The Arms were marked differently in the two periods.

When they appear, I believe the CW markings are small and usually on the flat wood, opposite the Lock. (Not in the wrist area like a model 1873 Springfield).

Rifling should be Three-Grooves with a slow twist rate of 1 turn in 72 inches.

Dick Hosmer gave you a great clue. Slide one of the barrel-bands forward and make sure the inletting for the band-spring is square-cut and not round at the rear.

(I don't understand this 'Militia' thing. During the CW, the State raised regiments were in Federal Service and were desperately needed.

IMHO - A front line weapon, like a Springfield made in 1864, if issued, would go to soldiers in Federal Service.

There were plenty of secondary weapons to pawn off on the militia, if State militia was even still existing in numbers. Lorenze, Potsdam, obsolete .69 caliber Springfield rifles and smooth-bores were available for such use).

If "the market is soft", that is good for the Buyer (you, unless you are planning a Quick 'flip'), but, not for the Seller. That's the time to Buy!

FWIW - The Springfield, you are looking at, has had the Breech-Plug removed at some time by a 'non-Armorer'. The distorted metal on the right side of the tang shows the wrong type of wrench was used. This blemish is not unusual on original Arms.

photos:
1. The mortise Mr. Hosmer spoke of.
2. My model 1866 - 2nd Allin Conversion has no visible wood markings (except impression/bruise from the impact of a screw-head).

[Jeremy T Garner]

The wrist area terminology is most likely my fault for any confusion for lack of a better term. Your Use of the term of opposite th lock plate on the flat of area on the stock is probably more appropriate use of terminology for the cartouche. I said wrist area he didn't. I forgot to include a photo of that area of the stock showing the lack of the cartouche. I'll put it up now. Sorry about that.

I forgot to cover the band spring inletting in my last post. I slid the rear and mid bands forward to investigate and everything is definitely square cut.

That was my thoughts on the militia comment as well. I would think that this arm being the most updated and modern version of this arm of its time would have saw federal service and not been given away as a secondary weapon to pawn off on the militias.

[butlersrangers]

The wood lines look very 'crisp' on that stock. The rifle could not have been fired much. The percussion cap system will, with use, cause damage and discoloration to the wood around the bolster/nipple area, unless further protected.

Caution - The trigger on a CW Springfield should be smooth.

It appears in your photo, the trigger is 'checkered'. That could be a trigger-guard unit from a model 1873 Springfield. I believe the trigger-guard units are identical, except the 1873 guard was 'browned' (blued) and it has a 'checkered' trigger.

(Re-visit my previous Post, which has been edited, regarding blemish on Breech-Plug).

FWIW - I suspect a 'Shooter' has once owned this model 1863 Springfield. It was un-breeched for barrel inspection/cleaning. A model 1873 trigger (or whole trigger-guard unit) was put on it.

These are minor faults and correctible. They indicate the rifle has been 'tinkered with'.

[Jeremy T Garner]

The nipple itself appears to me to be newer to me. The wear on the nipple doesn't match the rest of the rifle. That in conjunction with the 1873 trigger and evident signs of removal of the breech plug would indicate this was someone's shooter would be my guess.

[butlersrangers]

Original nipples were 'blackened', while the barrel and lock were burnished 'white'.

If properly cleaned after firing, Percussion Nipples hold up well. Original Nipples are available and relatively inexpensive

Rifles used in 'Skirmishing' (North-South Skirmish Assoc. - competitive matches) receive heavy use (1,000 rounds per season) and will usually have some charring of the wood from percussion cap 'flash'.

From my experience, CW Re-enactors were often neglectful of their Arms, after firing blanks, and didn't show the care that Shooters did. Black Powder is quite corrosive and neglect is visible.

FWIW - This Rifle does not look neglected in your photographs.

................. But, she does!!!

[Jeremy T Garner]

Hahaha!! I was waiting for someone to go there!! :) She was super sweet about letting me take all the pictures. Probably not a regular occurrence at a pawn shop. I walked in with a bore light, dial caliper, tape measure, and my phone in hand for pics. Between looking the rifle over and taking photos I was probably in the shop for close to 20 minutes.

[psteinmayer]

Send her to me Jeremy... either the rifle or the girl (or both!!! :D)

[butlersrangers]

Refocus:

It may just be an illusion, but, it appears there may be some faint remains of a cartouche(s) in circled areas.

(Another 1863 Springfield pictured for an example of marking style).