Dutch Mannlicher Question

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indy650
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:26 pm

Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by indy650 »

butlersrangers wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:21 pm BTW - It is not mine. Just a nice example, I found pictured on the internet.

Several prominent English Gun-Makers, like 'Jeffries' and 'Westley Richards', produced nice long-barreled Highland Deer Rifles, using surplus 6.5 mm Dutch infantry rifles. The .256 cal. ammo could be made using the .303 British cartridge case.
those companies have made some really nice firearms. Supposedly you can form the Dutch caliber (6.5X53MM) from .303 brass too. Too bad nobody sells the cases as far as I can find. Buffalo Arms has dies but they are 110 bucks. Maybe LEE has a set.

indy650
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:26 pm

Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by indy650 »

Doubly Reincarnated wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:13 pm Since they were new (1890s), these "turn bolt" Mannlichers have been turned into single shot "match" rifles for the British long range matches. Iron micrometer sights, 10 lb weight limit, 3 lb trigger pull. Most recent (?) rules of the game say caliber can only be 7.62x51 NATO. I have seen one such rifle, made on a Steyr action dated 1892.
A 1915 book covering match rifles says that the turn bolt Mannlichers were preferred because the triggers could be easily adjusted and gave a fine let off.
that's interesting. Single shot because the clip wont work with the required calibers or is single shot a requirement? I was pretty good shot in the Army I was always tempted to try out some of the civilian competitions. Probably would get my butt handed to me but might be fun. That's weird they would require only 7.62x51MM I mean it's an accurate round but there are many better for precision shooting.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by butlersrangers »

I use to have a couple of rifles in 6.5X54mm Mannicher-Schoenauer and reloaded for that caliber.

I also ended up with a 'sportered' Hembrug Dutch carbine, for a while.

I loaded ammo for the Dutch carbine using commercial .303 British and .30-40 Krag Brass.

The case necks were annealed and I first ran the .303 and .30-40 brass into a 7X57mm F.L. Resizing Die (without the decapping pin assembly). This helped move the shoulder and start case-neck reduction.

I then ran the cases into a 6.5X54mm F.L. Resizing Die, lubricating the necks with Imperial Sizing Wax. Then, I trimmed the very long case-necks to 6.5X54mm case length.

The finished brass worked fine.
The 6.5 M-S and Dutch cartridges have the same dimensions. The difference, one is 'Rimmed' and the other is 'Rim-less'. The Die is the same. The Dutch round just requires a .303/.30-40 shell-holder.

Doubly Reincarnated
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Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by Doubly Reincarnated »

indy650 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:32 pm
Doubly Reincarnated wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:13 pm Since they were new (1890s), these "turn bolt" Mannlichers have been turned into single shot "match" rifles for the British long range matches. Iron micrometer sights, 10 lb weight limit, 3 lb trigger pull. Most recent (?) rules of the game say caliber can only be 7.62x51 NATO. I have seen one such rifle, made on a Steyr action dated 1892.
A 1915 book covering match rifles says that the turn bolt Mannlichers were preferred because the triggers could be easily adjusted and gave a fine let off.
that's interesting. Single shot because the clip wont work with the required calibers or is single shot a requirement? I was pretty good shot in the Army I was always tempted to try out some of the civilian competitions. Probably would get my butt handed to me but might be fun. That's weird they would require only 7.62x51MM I mean it's an accurate round but there are many better for precision shooting.
The "present" cartridge cases used are NATO or .308, but the bullets can be anything. Usually much heavier, 180 grain or 200 grain boat-tail match bullets, loaded with the bullet seated out. Loaded cartridge is too long to function through the magazine. Over-all cartridge length was the same problem in the pre-WW1 match rifles. Many of the actions had the magazine well blocked off by a polished piece of steel and the spring & follower removed. The 10-lb. weight & 3 lb trigger pull was critical. Each rifle was weighed (unloaded) & trigger pull tested before the match. Rifle was given some sort of special sticker or decal if it passed.

Early calibers were unrestricted, but anything competitive was too long to function through any magazine. Look up ".321 Swift". Early on, some Danish Krag actions may have been modified for this game, also Ross rifles. Look at some of the early Ross cartridges.

At some point, the game required the use of .303 British cartridge cases. The 1915 book mentions that "Serving officers are obligated to use the King's rifles and ammunition. This handicap can seldom be overcome."

indy650
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:26 pm

Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by indy650 »

butlersrangers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:06 pm I use to have a couple of rifles in 6.5X54mm Mannicher-Schoenauer and reloaded for that caliber.

I also ended up with a 'sportered' Hembrug Dutch carbine, for a while.

I loaded ammo for the Dutch carbine using commercial .303 British and .30-40 Krag Brass.

The case necks were annealed and I first ran the .303 and .30-40 brass into a 7X57mm F.L. Resizing Die (without the decapping pin assembly). This helped move the shoulder and start case-neck reduction.

I then ran the cases into a 6.5X54mm F.L. Resizing Die, lubricating the necks with Imperial Sizing Wax. Then, I trimmed the very long case-necks to 6.5X54mm case length.

The finished brass worked fine.
The 6.5 M-S and Dutch cartridges have the same dimensions. The difference, one is 'Rimmed' and the other is 'Rim-less'. The Die is the same. The Dutch round just requires a .303/.30-40 shell-holder.
i was curious about the Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge but I wasn't sure if there was any problem with going rimless. Thanks for the info it's much help!

indy650
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:26 pm

Re: Dutch Mannlicher Question

Post by indy650 »

Doubly Reincarnated wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:50 pm
indy650 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:32 pm
Doubly Reincarnated wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:13 pm Since they were new (1890s), these "turn bolt" Mannlichers have been turned into single shot "match" rifles for the British long range matches. Iron micrometer sights, 10 lb weight limit, 3 lb trigger pull. Most recent (?) rules of the game say caliber can only be 7.62x51 NATO. I have seen one such rifle, made on a Steyr action dated 1892.
A 1915 book covering match rifles says that the turn bolt Mannlichers were preferred because the triggers could be easily adjusted and gave a fine let off.
that's interesting. Single shot because the clip wont work with the required calibers or is single shot a requirement? I was pretty good shot in the Army I was always tempted to try out some of the civilian competitions. Probably would get my butt handed to me but might be fun. That's weird they would require only 7.62x51MM I mean it's an accurate round but there are many better for precision shooting.
The "present" cartridge cases used are NATO or .308, but the bullets can be anything. Usually much heavier, 180 grain or 200 grain boat-tail match bullets, loaded with the bullet seated out. Loaded cartridge is too long to function through the magazine. Over-all cartridge length was the same problem in the pre-WW1 match rifles. Many of the actions had the magazine well blocked off by a polished piece of steel and the spring & follower removed. The 10-lb. weight & 3 lb trigger pull was critical. Each rifle was weighed (unloaded) & trigger pull tested before the match. Rifle was given some sort of special sticker or decal if it passed.

Early calibers were unrestricted, but anything competitive was too long to function through any magazine. Look up ".321 Swift". Early on, some Danish Krag actions may have been modified for this game, also Ross rifles. Look at some of the early Ross cartridges.

At some point, the game required the use of .303 British cartridge cases. The 1915 book mentions that "Serving officers are obligated to use the King's rifles and ammunition. This handicap can seldom be overcome."
interesting stuff thanks! guess i should have thought about the overall cartridge length being the reason for going to single shot.

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