Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

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ScandiHooligan
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Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by ScandiHooligan »

I was looking for a Krag Jorgensen, (my namesake for a couple years) of course I’d told my wife about it and she surprised me with this as a retirement present in December 2017.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns- ... =100913086

I took it to a local smith to look it over, said he didn’t see any issues with it, I bought some Winchester 30-40 Krag from him, I went to the range last week with a friend who is an avid shooter and Re-loader intending to shoot it and discovered it was not going into battery. The round fed into the barrel, but the bolt would not close. My friend thought it might be some distortion in the brass and recommended I purchase the dies. So then I went back to the original Guns International posting where I saw that “Caution” about only using the 48/Mod reduced load ammo. Upon further research I found a link to another website, www.KVF.No https://www.kvf.no/ammo-8x57JS.php
which has some photo’s and specs for 8x57 Moderat. The Ammo they depict though however is “Rimless”. There in lies my confusion. What is the correct round for this rifle. It clearly states on the barrel 7.9 x57 Mauser and my friend is more than competent to make whatever round I need, but he needs the specs assuming we can resolve the going into battery issue. Anyone’s input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Dean Jorgensen

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butlersrangers
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by butlersrangers »

Dean Jorgensen - Welcome to the KCA Forum. It sounds like you have a very nice Krag 'sporting rifle'.

A quick look on the internet and at William Brophy's book, "The Krag Rifle" (page 146), indicates the Norwegian Model 48 Sporting Rifle (M/48 Elgerifle) was chambered for the 8X57mm Mauser cartridge.

It was quickly learned that the regular Mauser ammo, generating over 50,000 pounds per square inch, was Too Hot for the Krag action.

The ammo for the 8X57mm Krag was reduced, (hence Moderat), to generate below 40,000 pounds per square inch.

I imagine, 'formed' 8X57mm Mauser brass could be loaded with a lighter charge of an appropriate powder, a 170 to 180 grain 8mm projectile, to create a cartridge generating under 40,000 pounds per square inch.

It would be a good idea to drive a soft Lead slug through your rifle's bore to insure it is dimensioned to accept .323-inch diameter projectiles.

FredC
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by FredC »

butlersrangers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:22 am
It would be a good idea to drive a soft Lead slug through your rifle's bore to insure it is dimensioned to accept .323-inch diameter projectiles.
I am puzzled by the 7.9 X 57 stamp on the barrel. I think early 8 X57 were more correctly 7.9mm - .318 inches on bore size. I think firing 8mm slugs in a 7.9 barrel produces dangerous pressures all by itself. This from memory of things read many years ago, so it maybe faulty. Slugging the bore will positively determine which bullets to use.

What Br said about Moderat on pressures sounds very reasonable. Moderat powder charges with the correct bullet diameter will make your "moose gun" safe and a pleasure to use.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by butlersrangers »

Dean Jorgensen: You should buy a copy of Lt. Col. William Brophy's book, "The Krag Rifle". I believe it is out-of-print, but copies show up on eBay, sometimes for a reasonable price.
Sigurd Halverson wrote chapter 16 of the book, covering Norwegian models.

(Note - There are different diameter bullets, that are called "8mm". They can range from .318" to .329" diameter; .323" is the most common).
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butlersrangers
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by butlersrangers »

FWIW - I got to comparing loaded .30-40 (rimmed) and 8X57 Mauser (rim-less) cartridges, today.

The cartridge cases are rather similar in size.

If I had your rifle, I would try loading some 8X57mm Mauser cases, using .30-40 Krag "STARTING LOADS".
Of course, bullets would have to be the proper diameter for your bore. The bullet's weight would have to be the same, as used in the Krag load data.
(Pressures would likely be under 40,000 pounds per square inch. BTW - The .30-40 is no slouch for Hunting)!

8X57mm Mauser brass, bullets, and Dies are common. Discuss this with your friend, who reloads.
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Parashooter
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by Parashooter »

ScandiHooligan wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:52 am. . .I bought some Winchester 30-40 Krag from him, I went to the range last week with a friend who is an avid shooter and Re-loader intending to shoot it and discovered it was not going into battery. . . Upon further research I found a link to another website . . . which has some photo’s and specs for 8x57 Moderat. The Ammo they depict though however is “Rimless”. There in lies my confusion. What is the correct round for this rifle. It clearly states on the barrel 7.9 x57 Mauser and my friend is more than competent to make whatever round I need, but he needs the specs assuming we can resolve the going into battery issue. . .
Lots of confusion here.

1. Except for trials models, Norwegian Krags were not chambered for the U.S. "30-40" cartridge - period. They were 6.5x55, plus the "Elgrifles" in 7.9x57 (AKA 8mm Mauser). The rimmed US cartridge will not fit in the bolt face recess on the Norse arms. That is why your bolt won't close on 30-40 cases - the rim interferes.
2. Those Elgrifles were chambered and bored (nominally .312"/.323", bore/groove) for the German service cartridge used from about 1905 through 1945 and variously known as 7.9x57, 7.92x57, 8x57IS, 8x57JS and (in the USA) 8x57 or 8mm Mauser. The earlier German service round adopted in 1888, called 8x57J or 8x57I in Europe, fits the tighter bore (~.311"/.319") of the model 1888 service rifle.
3. European military and commercial 7.9x57 cartridges are loaded with ~.323" diameter bullets to fit the groove diameter of the 1905 "S bore". Their normal working pressure can be a bit stiff for the Norwegian Krag action, hence the "Moderat" Norma loading for the Elgrifle.
4. US commercial 8mm Mauser ammunition is normally loaded to reduced pressure (under 38000 CUP) with fairly soft bullets about .321" diameter to avoid problems for uninformed US shooters using the early 8mm rifles with "tight" barrels. Data below, from an old IMR pamphlet, gives an idea of loads that should be suitable "maximum" for your Elgrifle (after ascertaining the groove diameter is indeed ~.323") -
8x57 IMR data.gif
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butlersrangers
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by butlersrangers »

Thanks 'Parashooter', that should be very useful to the O.P.

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ScandiHooligan
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by ScandiHooligan »

Wow, what a response and in only a weekend. Thank you all very much. I believe the first thing I’m going to do is take it to my local Gun Smith, (he’s an old guy, been around a while, family run business) and see if he can “Slug the bore” as ButlersRangers suggested, then proceed from there. I’ll post again when I get the results. Thanks again!
ScandiHooligan

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Parashooter
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by Parashooter »

Bore slugging is easily done at home with minimum tools.
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FredC
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Re: Norwegian Krag M.48 Moose Rifle by Kongsberg

Post by FredC »

Parashooter wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:54 am
Lots of confusion here.

2. Those Elgrifles were chambered and bored (nominally .312"/.323", bore/groove) for the German service cartridge used from about 1905 through 1945 and variously known as 7.9x57, 7.92x57, 8x57IS, 8x57JS and (in the USA) 8x57 or 8mm Mauser. The earlier German service round adopted in 1888, called 8x57J or 8x57I in Europe, fits the tighter bore (~.311"/.319") of the model 1888 service rifle.
I read an article about 40 years ago on the 8mm issue. I now remember it was confusing and that the Europeans were knowledgeable on the subject. It would have been too easy if the small bores were called 7.9mm and the larger more common ones 8mm. But confusing terms are not just an "other side of the pond" thing. Look at what we do over here, for example 38 caliber is really 357 or 9mm. 45 caliber pistol is .451" diameter but 45 rifle is .458"and shouldn't 44 caliber be 42 or 43 caliber?
Parashooter, glad to have you here to straighten things out for us.

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