French influence on U.S. Armories

For poking fun and off topic subjects
User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by butlersrangers »

There are a lot of screws in the breech-mechanism of a Hall rifle. It appears steps were taken to improve the quality and the interchangeability of the machine-made screws during the course of the Hall rifle production, (1819 to 1840).

John Hall resided at Harper's Ferry during that period, refining his flintlock breech-loader and setting up the machine-process for mass production.

It is pretty amazing that Hall and Simeon North, (at his New England factory, 400 miles away), were able to manufacture arms that had parts that were interchangeable with each other.

IMHO - The Hall Rifle is of major significance. It would be educational to compare the screw-threads of an early Hall with one of late production. It would be significant to compare the screw-threads with those of other armory produced arms, made both before and after the period the Hall Rifle was manufactured.

Regrettably, few people would have access to this array of historic arms and the inclination to note such trivia.
Attachments
Hall-profile.jpg
Hall-profile.jpg (173.27 KiB) Viewed 1776 times
Hall-profile2.jpg
Hall-profile2.jpg (150.64 KiB) Viewed 1776 times
Hall-open.jpg
Hall-open.jpg (69.13 KiB) Viewed 1776 times
Hall-block.jpg
Hall-block.jpg (46.24 KiB) Viewed 1776 times

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by FredC »

I helped set up a fellow to make flint lock screws. I will ask if he has any original samples or knows of the early manufacturing history. One amazing thing about reproduction flint locks each of the 9 or so screws are different. I am sure I could design one to use the same screw in several different places.
Things were changing so fast back then and every one was copying every one else. You are probably right at some point there was French influence, as well German and British. As ideas were developed here they got borrowed by all the others.

User avatar
Culpeper
Posts: 1521
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:01 am

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by Culpeper »

You can thank the French for the M1 Garand and the M14.
Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals).  Liberty Works Radio

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by FredC »

Cleaning my desk and found this article in Production Machining Magazine (formally Automatic Screw Machining):
Attachments
TheAmericanSystemRS.jpg
TheAmericanSystemRS.jpg (657.15 KiB) Viewed 1534 times

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by butlersrangers »

Interesting article about the American Precision Museum in Windsor, Vermont. Thanks for sharing!

Robbins & Lawrence was a remarkable American company at the 'cutting edge' of pre-Civil War U.S. Arms manufacture.
The posted article left out the story of the sad fate of Robbins & Lawrence.

As I recall events, around 1853, Britain became embroiled in the Crimean War against Russia. The British were ill prepared for this conflict. Having recently adopted the .577 caliber model 1853 Enfield muzzle-loading rifle, much of the British Army was still equipped with obsolete weaponry.

Enfield Arsenal could not meet the demand for model 1853 rifles, so contracts were let with private British makers and foreign sources. A prime source for interchangeable part rifles was to be Robbins & Lawrence of Windsor, Vermont.

This seemingly lucrative contract proved to be the undoing of the American firm.
The British were slow to provide the necessary gauging. The gauges were made of hardwood, which swelled during the transAtlantic voyage. This caused delays in manufacture and complying with the contract.

The well made Robbins & Lawrence "Enfield" rifles did not interchange with rifles made at Enfield Lock and were not delivered on time. The British refused delivery and refused to pay.
Robbins & Lawrence went to Court, lost, and went bankrupt. The company's assets and machinery were sold at auction.
The Colt Patent Firearms Company was to profit well from some of their acquisitions.

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by FredC »

Wooden thread gauges, wowsers! We had discussed thread forms earlier. Took a while to make a design that was repeatable and strong at the same time. Wooden gauges the would wear quickly and result in larger and larger screws would be so self defeating to interchangeability. Probably a lot of vested interest in the old way of doing things. Sure would be interesting to see the machines that Robbins and Lawrence exported and to know who made them. Never had the time to trace the history of machine tools of that era. By the early 1900s many of the big names like Brown & Sharpe, Davenport were going strong.

Just copied some material from the Britanica web site:
"In 1797 Henry Maudslay, also of England and one of the great inventive geniuses of his day, designed and built a screw-cutting engine lathe. By 1800 Maudslay had equipped his lathe with 28 change gears that cut threads of various pitches by controlling the ratio of the lead-screw speed to the spindle speed.

Another disciple of Maudslay, Joseph Whitworth, invented or improved a great number of machine tools and came to dominate the field; at the International Exhibition of 1862, his firm’s exhibits took up a quarter of all the space devoted to machine tools.

Britain tried to keep its lead in machine-tool development by prohibiting exports, but the attempt was foredoomed by industrial development elsewhere. British tools were exported to continental Europe and to the United States despite the prohibition, and new tools were developed outside Britain. Notable among these was the milling machine invented by Eli Whitney, produced in the United States in 1818, and used by Simeon North to manufacture firearms. The first fully universal milling machine was built in 1862 by J.R. Brown of the United States and was used to cut helical flutes in twist drills. The turret lathe, also developed in the United States in the middle of the 19th century, was fully automatic in some operations, such as making screws, and it presaged the momentous developments of the 20th century."

Who made this auto turret lathe and how automatic was it would be real interesting to know.

User avatar
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Am REALLY ignorant on this subject, but have always thought that our bastard 26 tpi was way too close to 25.4 to be a coincidence.

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by butlersrangers »

Dick are you saying 1 inch = 25.4mms? Sounds good :o

It would be neat to find more possible correlations & connections between French and early U.S. gun threads.

User avatar
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Yes, that's the relationship to which I refer. Perhaps we "liked" the general proportions and form, but just decided to "even it up a bit"? In any event it is a fascinating subject.

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: French influence on U.S. Armories

Post by butlersrangers »

It would be nice to establish a database of screw sizes and threads per inch, found on older U.S. and Foreign arms, and see if some patterns emerge.

Screw threads, for me, quickly become a 'head spinning' subject with lots of technicalities, possibly made more complex by 'Forms' and standards, that came into use as more and more equipment was mass produced.

IMHO - It would be easier, for the sake of comparison, just to measure the diameter of the threads and the number of threads per inch, when assessing old gunscrews and look for correlations, patterns and relationships.

Post Reply