Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Ammunition, reloading, shooting, etc
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butlersrangers
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

Some dimensions of Krag .30-40 cartridge and bullet from various Official drawings.
Drawings vary, showing Minimum bullet base diameter of .3075" and .308". Also shown are Maximums of .308", .3089" and .3093".

1. 1893 Bullet Drawings

2. 1894 Tests

3. Frankford Arsenal 1898 drawings

4. .30-40 cartridge 1917 Manual
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Y2K-WS.6
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

Oddly enough I pulled these 30-40 drawings from the Frankford Arsenal reloads thread right below this one. Thanks to Doubly Reincarnated.

They're in French for reasons unknown so all dimensions are metric but I added conversions from an internet source. One is dated 1900 so it is well into the production of the 30-40 and shows a maximum bullet diameter of 7.8mm which translates to .307's of an inch. So if these drawings are what the Arsenals were working off of in 1900 it makes sense that all my surplus rounds are a .307" diameter.

The other drawing which seems to be discussing the proposed round to be adopted by the US and dated 1891 shows a maximum diameter of 7.75mm which translates to .305's of an inch. Apparently there was no absolute yet established for the diameter of the 30 Army ball cartridge at that time.
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butlersrangers
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

I would give greater credibility to the U.S. Ordnance drawings that I posted spanning 1893, 1898, and 1917.

The first 'French drawing' is commercial, circa 1900, from Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The second drawing is circa 1890/1891.

I don't think U.S. Ordnance Department 'paperwork' gives any support to OP's premise, that .30-40 bullets were initially .307" diameter and eventually became .308" in a later period.
(The U.S. drawings show .308" and .3093" diameters in 1893).
.
It is possible that the OP's barrel was either a manufacturing mistake, an intentional experiment, or privately made, given its maximum bore diameter of .307".

(Many issued Krags, with Springfield Armory barrels, are known to have bore diameters exceeding .308").

A rifle serial number would allow checking against SRS data for 'known Krags' with specially manufactured barrels.

It would be interesting to see photos of any markings on this barrel.

Privately made barrels, by Winchester, Stevens, and Pope were known to have been put on Krag rifles by some competition Shooters in the early 1900's and created controversy.
The 1903 U.S. Palma Match Team's victory at Bisley, England, was later disqualified because the American shooters used non-issue Stevens-Pope barrels.

Y2K-WS.6
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

butlersrangers wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:51 pm I would give greater credibility to the U.S. Ordnance drawings that I posted spanning 1893, 1898, and 1917.

The first 'French drawing' is commercial, circa 1900, from Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The second drawing is circa 1890/1891.

I don't think U.S. Ordnance Department 'paperwork' gives any support to OP's premise, that .30-40 bullets were initially .307" diameter and eventually became .308" in a later period.
(The U.S. drawings show .308" and .3093" diameters in 1893).
.
It is possible that the OP's barrel was either a manufacturing mistake, an intentional experiment, or privately made, given its maximum bore diameter of .307".

(Many issued Krags, with Springfield Armory barrels, are known to have bore diameters exceeding .308").

A rifle serial number would allow checking against SRS data for 'known Krags' with specially manufactured barrels.

It would be interesting to see photos of any markings on this barrel.

Privately made barrels, by Winchester, Stevens, and Pope were known to have been put on Krag rifles by some competition Shooters in the early 1900's and created controversy.
The 1903 U.S. Palma Match Team's victory at Bisley, England, was later disqualified because the American shooters used non-issue Stevens-Pope barrels.
I will agree on the ordinance department drawings however industrial and military espionage has been around long before the 20th century even among allies. It calls for a minimum spec of .3075" and we all know how cheap the military was at that time especially when it came to ammunition. If they can effectively work with the totally minimal spec which they did they used that minimum spec to save on material during production. I can get some pictures of the rounds with the heads out of the cases being measured by my mic sometime soon.

Jim at milsurps.com ran an SRS check for me from volume 1 with no results. To go any further will cost me money and I'd rather spend that on a swaging die.

Ask and ye shall receive I have some barrel pictures as the rifle is apart for cleaning from yesterday's range trip. There is very little in the way of markings anywhere on the barrel except the very bottom close to the receiver. There appears to be what looks like a playing card club, then what seems to be a P above that, and either an incompletely stamped B or E and that's it from the entirely of the barrel. There seem to be 2 witness marks on the receiver, the very bottom and the side by the magazine which is the one being utilized. I have included those and the other markings on the receiver face. I would find it very interesting if this rifle is a former hot rod and rule breaker then we'll have a lot in common. Like I said...former.
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Y2K-WS.6
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

I'm including pictures of the gaggle of markings along the front edges of the receiver and trying to get one of the bore to satisfy any curiosity. It's not easy to do with a cellphone camera.
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FredC
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by FredC »

I see a line on each groove about 1/3 of the width. First guess is the cutter was nearing the end of its life and was cutting a smidgeon undersize, probably in Springfield tolerance. As wide as the grooves are there should not be undo deforming of the bullet even though the barrel is .0005 undersize per side.

Your barrel has a couple more stamps on it than one I just looked at here. That receiver has many more stamps than i have ever seen on a Krag photo.

Wish Parashooter would show up as he is more knowledgeable on this sort of stuff.

Y2K-WS.6
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

FredC wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:14 pm I see a line on each groove about 1/3 of the width. First guess is the cutter was nearing the end of its life and was cutting a smidgeon undersize, probably in Springfield tolerance. As wide as the grooves are there should not be undo deforming of the bullet even though the barrel is .0005 undersize per side.

Your barrel has a couple more stamps on it than one I just looked at here. That receiver has many more stamps than i have ever seen on a Krag photo.

Wish Parashooter would show up as he is more knowledgeable on this sort of stuff.
Holiday weekend, I'm surprised your here!
It's not as extreme as it looks in the photo. It really isn't noticeable to the eye the photo is a magnification.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

Nice photos of your Krag rifle's markings. You do have a Springfield Armory barrel on your Krag.
I suspect your barrel left Springfield Armory with an Undersized Bore. (Probably within acceptable tolerances, but undersized).

It appears your barrel has two letter "P" proof stamps. (Krag Barrels usually have just one)?

There is also a "P" proof on the front edge of the receiver, near the 'index mark' at 9 o'clock.
This is how the receivers were normally marked, including lots of 'inspection hieroglyphics' on the magazine box.

The barrel and receiver index-marks nicely line-up, as they should, with the 'timed thead system' that was used on U.S. Krag barrels.

Attached are two example photos:

1. A badly abused Gallery Practice Krag in .22 caliber - (If you look past the pipe-wrench jaw marks, you can see an index-mark on the barrel. When fully turned into place, the index marks will meet).

2. A model 1898 Krag action to which a civilian has fitted an altered and rechambered 1903 Springfield barrel.
The Receiver preserves its "P" and index line. The re-threaded barrel has no index-line.
Visible is the remains of a cross-pin groove, that once secured a 1903 rear-sight 'collar'.
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Y2K-WS.6
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

Good to know all Springfield, thanks for the abused examples.

I was a bit surprised by all the markings the first time I took the barreled action out of the stock. I thought I was looking at one of my British rifles for a second.

It may be the case as Fred suggested that the rifling cutter was at the end of its lifespan giving both an undersized bore and strange ghost land. Of course this is only theory.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

It is mind boggling when you read about the manufacture of Krag-Jorgensen actions and barrels at Springfield Armory.

The actions were machined from a 6 1/2 pound forging to a 1 1/2 pound complex shape prior to case-hardening.
There was a lot of gauging and inspection during the approximate 125 machining operations, as reflected by the obscure markings on the front of the magazine box.

The barrels underwent over 30 manufacturing operations and were a totally finished product when 'screwed' onto finished actions.

The finished interchangeable Krag parts, randomly selected from bins, went together almost like 'LEGOS' at the Hill Shops of Springfield Armory.

I have read that N.Y. and N.J. National Guard Units, in the early 1900's, reported receiving Krag rifles with "over-size" bores.

It is quite conceivable that there would be some rifles turned out with tight "under-size" bores.

The OP has photographed a rifle bore that appears to be in excellent condition. Rifling cutter marks are quite noticeable.
His experience and careful measuring suggest the bore is a bit under-size.

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