Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Ammunition, reloading, shooting, etc
FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by FredC »

That bunch at SA certainly were thrifty. I saw it in the tapped holes on my sporter. I made screws for the trigger guard with the intention of having a tight fit. The holes were tapped with worn taps so I had to size the screws for the pitch diameter of the bottom of the holes. In the days before high speed steel was invented the old tool steel cutting tools wore relatively quickly. In tapped holes that resulted in more teeth cutting at the same time and a real need to be careful not to break the tape with the result of extra time trying to extract it.

It was not too many years before the Krags were built the tolerance on bore diameter could have been much greater with paper patched and the later lubed lead bullets. How much tighter tolerance would have been a trial and error experience that would take time to identify what was best. Tighter tolerances take time and money to produce. Measuring and inspection was more difficult back then and would have been driving by measuring the results over time. Krags were cutting edge, produced in a time of rapid industrialization and change.

As Br mentioned this business with interchangeable parts was very new, and that took a lot of experimenting to fully implement.

Y2K-WS.6
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

FredC wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:43 pm That bunch at SA certainly were thrifty. I saw it in the tapped holes on my sporter. I made screws for the trigger guard with the intention of having a tight fit. The holes were tapped with worn taps so I had to size the screws for the pitch diameter of the bottom of the holes. In the days before high speed steel was invented the old tool steel cutting tools wore relatively quickly. In tapped holes that resulted in more teeth cutting at the same time and a real need to be careful not to break the tape with the result of extra time trying to extract it.

It was not too many years before the Krags were built the tolerance on bore diameter could have been much greater with paper patched and the later lubed lead bullets. How much tighter tolerance would have been a trial and error experience that would take time to identify what was best. Tighter tolerances take time and money to produce. Measuring and inspection was more difficult back then and would have been driving by measuring the results over time. Krags were cutting edge, produced in a time of rapid industrialization and change.

As Br mentioned this business with interchangeable parts was very new, and that took a lot of experimenting to fully implement.
Hope you had a happy 4th Fred. I can see why they would use a tap to the very end of its lifespan the same as a barrel bore which is almost certainly the case with my barrel as you suggested, I'm 100% in agreement with that it's the only theory that makes sense. At that time something extremely precise must have been very expensive to produce.

To illustrate your point my M1888 Trapdoor Springfield has an oversized bore. In the grooves it measures .462 when the standard is .459 with most not exceeding .460. It was made in 1892 so it's among the last of them made. No it's not worn out, as a barrel wears the lands are ground down these are a full 10 thousand in height exactly as it was made. I've included a bore shot for illustration. The rifle shoots very well giving tight groups and cleaning up surprisingly easy for a greased lead projectile barrel. Smokeless powder helps with the cleanup.
Attachments
20220501_194037.jpg
20220501_194037.jpg (386.33 KiB) Viewed 1043 times

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by FredC »

I looked on Parashooter's profile and he has been to KCA a couple of times since you have posted. I guess he had nothing to add, so the various suggestions that have been made maybe all you get. An odd ball thing that Br has discovered is 110 round nose bullets have given surprising accuracy in several of his Krags. Maybe the shorter lighter bullets would be easier to swage to size in your barrel or a special tool. Probably would not be good for long range target shooting but his results at 100 yards have been very good. I do not think they feed well in most Krags is another downside.

User avatar
Parashooter
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:14 am
Location: Kragmudgeon House, CT

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Parashooter »

FredC wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:31 pmI am surprised that .0005 inches per side would make much difference. Also think that .307 would be within acceptable tolerance for a 30 caliber.
I haven't responded to this one because I agree with FredC that the OP's basic premise - a .001" smaller bullet making much difference in fouling - is likely flawed. OP might consider evaluating throat condition, becoming more tolerant of minor jacket fouling, or changing cleaning method as more productive solutions than trying to find .307" commercial bullets.

(FWIW, it's widely-held that downsizing jacketed lead-core bullets is detrimental to accuracy. It seems that, after swaging, the elastic copper-alloy jacket expands more than the softer lead-alloy core, leaving core a loose fit in jacket - not good.)

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

Thanks 'Parashooter' for your observations on bullet fit and also the content on another thread concerning de-priming Berdan cases.

Y2K-WS.6
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by Y2K-WS.6 »

FredC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:39 pm I looked on Parashooter's profile and he has been to KCA a couple of times since you have posted. I guess he had nothing to add, so the various suggestions that have been made maybe all you get. An odd ball thing that Br has discovered is 110 round nose bullets have given surprising accuracy in several of his Krags. Maybe the shorter lighter bullets would be easier to swage to size in your barrel or a special tool. Probably would not be good for long range target shooting but his results at 100 yards have been very good. I do not think they feed well in most Krags is another downside.
In my initial post I did say that I didn't want to load carbine bullets which is what those 110gr heads are. They are difficult to work with in general and are hard to feed in a Krag as they have to be manually chambered because they can't feed from the magazine.

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by FredC »

Most of us are getting old and forgetful, original post was months ago was'nt? :-)

Loading and shooting some 110 grain soft points might make an interesting experiment while trying to sort other things out. Do they foul as badly, are they accurate? Krags are peculiar what they feed easily, maybe yours will feed them well.

Right now we have had no easy solutions, maybe trying this will lead you somewhere if it does not work well.

Krag barrels are relatively easy to switch another good used one or a new Criterion barrel may be in your future.

Br, did a thread about switching a barrel a while back, it is something that can be done at home with a few tools.

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by butlersrangers »

'FredC' - I think the OP is basically happy with his Krag rifle and the barrel's performance. Lots of valid points have been raised and observations offered.

IMHO - We have fully beat this horse into the ground. I am finished with the subject.
It is the original poster's 'problem' to solve. He knows what he wants.

A lot of well stated feedback, theorizing and observations, were offered.

BTW - The reduced .30-40 rounds, that utilized the 100 and 110 grain M-1 Carbine projectiles, would feed the first one or two rounds from the magazine.
The jamming occurred because of the short Over All Cartridge Length.
The short bullets do not project enough from the cartridge-case to help control cartridge feed.
During firing, cartridges in the magazine are free to move forward and get out of position, eventually hanging-up in the tapered opening in the left receiver wall.

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by FredC »

Ok, I got the impression a couple of hours of hard cleaning was needed with each shooting session, that would really need to be addressed.
Parashooter's mention of throat condition could be checked with a good bore scope. Maybe a trip to a competent gunsmith with a good bore scope could reveal something. We saw nothing noteworthy from the muzzle end, if something bad is seen on the chamber side then a decision to live with or do something about it will need to be made with a real understanding of the cause.
Like Br said nowhere else to go. Shooting a Krag should be fun.

User avatar
psteinmayer
Posts: 2677
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am

Re: Any Source of 180gr and Up .307 Diameter Jacketed Bullets?

Post by psteinmayer »

I'll be perfectly honest... if a little copper fouling is the worst thing I have to contend with... then there are much bigger fish to fry in the world! I have copper fowling in my barrel near the muzzle. It's clearly visible. It's been there for years. No amount of cleaning or scrubbing has removed it. And here's the BIGGEST point of this all - it has NEVER affected accuracy!!! If the copper fowling was such that it affected the rifling, or caused bullet tumble, or disfigured the bullet somehow... then I could see getting my undies in a twist. But copper fowling has never been an issue with me, and I shoot my Krag competitively every year and can get respectable shots at 200 yards. I use copper jacketed bullets, and I clean until the patches come out clean (no black or dark from powder residue). I think (at least in my humble opinion) that worrying about copper fowling is not worth the effort!

Post Reply