Annealing
Re: Annealing
The potassium salts rinse off when you quench. I have a metronome app on my iPhone and set it for 60 beats per minute. The first "beat" is a higher frequency than the following 3 so I set the case in the holder on that one. I set the temp for 1000F and leave the case in the bath for 4 seconds. The heat transfer from the liquid salt bath is consistent and efficient. The case holder sets them at the correct height in the bath. It has places for two cases but I only do one at a time. I can anneal 200 cases in 30 minutes or less and every one looks exactly the same. I know there are folks achieving great results with a flame but there is no learning curve with this method. Just remember you are dealing with a 1000F liquid; safety is paramount. I clamp my lead pot to my bench, wear clothing appropriate for welding, long leather gloves and a face shield. Had someone not shown me this method I would have never undertaken annealing. I used to give my 10x cases away to a friend who annealed (sorry, lol >:().
Re: Annealing
Parashooter I probably have done a few by hand that way. Also made a holder for the cordless drill. I have used tempil markers and they are difficult to see when they actually run, for color blind me. I put a bunch of Tempil marks on some brass to anneal later and found out the material is very corrosive on brass. I never felt I could get the angle and temp of the flame consistent enough with the torch and again my eyes do no see the colors like others would.
I have accidentally picked up hot objects that have been in the oven and never been very good at judging the temperature as I let the drop. I thought that was what Butlersrangers meant. My fingers are not calibrated for 650 to 700 degrees. Once the guy on the lathe in front of me threw a hot chip over the machine, it was berylium copper and about that hot. Landed between my glasses and upper eyelid. As it was cooling off against my skin it was vibrating and buzzing, thought an angry wasp was in there. Could not take the glasses off fast enough and each curl of the chip burned the skin black.
Bote, I looked up several references to your system and all are doing 950 to 1000F. Do you know why so hot? References say 650F will actually anneal but it takes too much time and the extended time will allow heat to get to the rest of the case. So 700F is recommended to anneal quickly without the heat damaging the body of the case. I would expect a molten liquid to be as close to immediate on the transfer time as anything could be.
Also where did you get your supplies?
Thanks, Fred
I have accidentally picked up hot objects that have been in the oven and never been very good at judging the temperature as I let the drop. I thought that was what Butlersrangers meant. My fingers are not calibrated for 650 to 700 degrees. Once the guy on the lathe in front of me threw a hot chip over the machine, it was berylium copper and about that hot. Landed between my glasses and upper eyelid. As it was cooling off against my skin it was vibrating and buzzing, thought an angry wasp was in there. Could not take the glasses off fast enough and each curl of the chip burned the skin black.
Bote, I looked up several references to your system and all are doing 950 to 1000F. Do you know why so hot? References say 650F will actually anneal but it takes too much time and the extended time will allow heat to get to the rest of the case. So 700F is recommended to anneal quickly without the heat damaging the body of the case. I would expect a molten liquid to be as close to immediate on the transfer time as anything could be.
Also where did you get your supplies?
Thanks, Fred
Re: Annealing
I bought a "kit" from Ballistic Solutions in Canada. I think it was about $90 plus shipping.
The recommended procedure is 500-550C for 4-7 seconds. I set mine at 520C and soak them 4 seconds. There is a distinct color change. I agree that the heat transfer from the molten salts is probably almost instantaneous.
There is an excellent video on the website.
The recommended procedure is 500-550C for 4-7 seconds. I set mine at 520C and soak them 4 seconds. There is a distinct color change. I agree that the heat transfer from the molten salts is probably almost instantaneous.
There is an excellent video on the website.
Re: Annealing
FredC, my sniper match partner from south Florida has told me he thinks I am annealing to an excessive temperature based on pics I've sent him. He anneals with a fancy flame though. I follow the recommendations of others with more experience than I using the salt bath equipment. I was told that overtemped case necks can be mashed flat by hand. I can tell no difference in the crush strength of my pre or post annealed case necks. They also load great with consistent neck tension.
Re: Annealing
Just emailed Gary at Ballistic Recreations and asked some of these same questions. I also asked if I could use his thermocouple with one of my heat treat oven controllers. The Lee pot does not seem to like 1000F and fails at that temp.
I have read that 650F is the temp needed but requires a long time so increasing the temp shortens the time needed. So 950 may be the right temp for 4 to 7 secs. That Tempil paste does not seem to work for me. I am real good at seeing mechanical details but seeing colors or a paint flowing are not easy or repeatable for me. I have a noncontact thermometer but the area where you need to measure is so small on a case neck it will blend background in temperatures for a bad read. Not sure if the "experts" recommending 700 were really getting 700.
The salt may affect colors also. While it is submerged it is cut off from oxygen, and salt is below the temp that is a strong oxidizer. Who knows if the colors would be the same as achieved with a torch. If you are getting good results that may be the best indication. When I am sizing from 30 to 35 caliber I need to know I am getting consistent results. If you are still able to edit your second post you may want to correct the name of the supplier.
Additional thought:
The reason for the higher temp maybe the salt is not as fast as molten metal in the transfer. The 950 maybe needed because it is slower. When I was trying molten lead I figured the transfer was immediate.
I have read that 650F is the temp needed but requires a long time so increasing the temp shortens the time needed. So 950 may be the right temp for 4 to 7 secs. That Tempil paste does not seem to work for me. I am real good at seeing mechanical details but seeing colors or a paint flowing are not easy or repeatable for me. I have a noncontact thermometer but the area where you need to measure is so small on a case neck it will blend background in temperatures for a bad read. Not sure if the "experts" recommending 700 were really getting 700.
The salt may affect colors also. While it is submerged it is cut off from oxygen, and salt is below the temp that is a strong oxidizer. Who knows if the colors would be the same as achieved with a torch. If you are getting good results that may be the best indication. When I am sizing from 30 to 35 caliber I need to know I am getting consistent results. If you are still able to edit your second post you may want to correct the name of the supplier.
Additional thought:
The reason for the higher temp maybe the salt is not as fast as molten metal in the transfer. The 950 maybe needed because it is slower. When I was trying molten lead I figured the transfer was immediate.
Re: Annealing
I did hear from Gary at Ballistic Recreations and his 450C (842F) minimum temp is based on tests he personally conducted. His training as an engineer and ability to test for residual hardness led to this minimum temperature to be used with his system.
I think the heat transfer with the salt may be slightly slower than lead, so this contributes to the need for a higher temperature. I will be ordering a kit soon.
As a side note heating with a torch and quenching with water may actually shorten the time at the annealing temperature. Letting the brass cool in still air would allow more time at temperature. The quenching adds nothing to the actual annealing other than safety so you do not bump into hot brass. It may keep the heat from traveling down the brass also.
We used to anneal 300 series stainless cable fittings at 2000+F and quenching in cold water actually did something there, it prevented grain growth so the fittings could be successfully swaged onto the cables without splitting. It was easy to see if the process worked, if splitting occurred you did not do it right. When done correctly the cable would break before the fittings pulled off in destructive testing.
Quenching with Ballistic Recreations system will stop the heat from traveling, as well as rinse the salt of the cases. I will ask if a tittle detergent in the quench will help with rinsing the salt off.
The correct name does not have "solutions" in the tittle, that is a bullet proof glass company
I think the heat transfer with the salt may be slightly slower than lead, so this contributes to the need for a higher temperature. I will be ordering a kit soon.
As a side note heating with a torch and quenching with water may actually shorten the time at the annealing temperature. Letting the brass cool in still air would allow more time at temperature. The quenching adds nothing to the actual annealing other than safety so you do not bump into hot brass. It may keep the heat from traveling down the brass also.
We used to anneal 300 series stainless cable fittings at 2000+F and quenching in cold water actually did something there, it prevented grain growth so the fittings could be successfully swaged onto the cables without splitting. It was easy to see if the process worked, if splitting occurred you did not do it right. When done correctly the cable would break before the fittings pulled off in destructive testing.
Quenching with Ballistic Recreations system will stop the heat from traveling, as well as rinse the salt of the cases. I will ask if a tittle detergent in the quench will help with rinsing the salt off.
The correct name does not have "solutions" in the tittle, that is a bullet proof glass company
-
carbon outlaw
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:19 pm
Re: Annealing
OK I was looking on google and they said any where between 5 to 15 times brass can be reloaded ... It depends on how hot your loads are how tight your chamber is if you work it a lot by full length resizing
.. So I said I reload mine hundreds of times ... Has any one ever herd of reloading the same brass that many times ... I have brass I perchased 50 years ago that I'm still reusing ... May be it just seems like 100 of times ....I shot m1_carbine for years I would load it so hot the brass would come out blue kind of self anieling ... That brass I would be lucky to get 2 reloads before it would crack ... My 30-40 brass comes out very cool ... May be that would account for the extended life ....
.. So I said I reload mine hundreds of times ... Has any one ever herd of reloading the same brass that many times ... I have brass I perchased 50 years ago that I'm still reusing ... May be it just seems like 100 of times ....I shot m1_carbine for years I would load it so hot the brass would come out blue kind of self anieling ... That brass I would be lucky to get 2 reloads before it would crack ... My 30-40 brass comes out very cool ... May be that would account for the extended life ....
-
psteinmayer
- Posts: 2683
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am
Re: Annealing
I have brass (Remington, R-P headstamp) that's had easily north of 25 reloads! Take care of your brass and it will take care of you.
-
madsenshooter
- Posts: 1176
- Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:00 am
- Location: Upper Appalachia aka SE Ohio
Re: Annealing
I've seen the blue carbon outlaw mentioned, on the neck of some Krag cases that I'd loaded with Blue Dot. The high nitro content gets the temp up enough to turn the neck a little blue. The 30 carbine likes powders in that "hot" burn range. Necks get a little blue to them when I load with 10B101 too.