Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

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reiver
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by reiver »

I've always said lead too...

The old vintage scope would not hold zero...so I bought two weaver 29S scopes on ebay and put one good scope together...2.5x but came out fine. I was not grouping and finally figured out the mount needed a shim so found a Monster tin can at the range and cut some shims...worked. In the pic I am 'walking' my rounds to the correct elevation...I 'd shoot one round and then spotter scope (that 2.5 ain't that good at distance)...solid clicks on the scope and a tad over 1 MOA @ 100 yards.
I went thru 30 rounds before I figured out the shim issue...we've all been there...like wt heck is off aye?
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todd444
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by todd444 »

reiver wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:36 pm Todd, did you slug your barrel before using the .311's or just went that route? A worn bore, worn evenly, will still shoot pretty accurately. I've used .312's in Mosins after slugging them and they did well.

If the bore is still closer to .308 and you are shooting .311's then your CUP will certainly climb and you would just be wearing the bore out quicker. I shoot way too much to go oversized without any proper check. Are you shooting handloaded lead or copper clad?
i slugged the bore and it .3085". my rifle was made in 1903, well after Harry M Pope's "visit" with Springfield Armory. it took me ALOT of scrubbing out the bore to bare steel (shooter's choice, sweets, gunslick's rifle bore cleaner...), so i could lead slug it.

i load the gun up with a 165gr Ranch Dog(173gr actually) and 25.5gr of H4198 that goes 1930fps. i believe it is in Lyman #49 and 173gr cast boolit. i have shot 2500-3000 times with the same load and no cleaning the bore. the bore is still bright and shiny as the day i cleaned it.

i shot my tc encore (23" MGM barrel) about 3500-4000 times using cast boolits. i'm waiting on the day to clean the bore out. i slugged it at .4290" and the boolits will go .430 -.432" (220gr WC, 250gr penta HP, 255gr Keith-type SWC, 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr LFN GC, 280 WFN GC and 300gr FN GR. the velocity for them are around 1400-2300fps. i used to do the 300gr FN GC with 24.0gr of 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1624fps, great deer round. now it is 280gr WFN GC (.431") with 38.5gr of Rel 7 that goes 1937fps. i have had a 275gr Ranch Dog reaches over 2300fps (or was it 2400fps?), but that was with HOT load.

as long as the rifle doesn't "kick" more than the '06 with 180gr factory loads, my shoulder deems it to be ok. :lol: :lol: :lol:

(i am such a wussy now that i'm getting older) :oops: :lol:
Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.

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todd444
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by todd444 »

30-40 krag with Redfield 102K aperture sights
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i shot the following about 8 or 9 years ago

targets with open sights at 100 yards, 165gr ranch dog
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sighting it in at 100 yards with Redfield 102K aperture sights, 165gr ranch dog and 25.5gr of h4198(7 - 10 are a group)
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Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by butlersrangers »

Early Ordnance Manuals often provide nice illustrations of how things were built back in the Krag era.
It is possible Krag chambers were cut a bit different than what we are used to, today.
The Ordnance Manual drawings may overly simplify the transition from chamber throat to rifling.

The last illustration is British and shows their terminology for early .303 chambers.
It may also demonstrate how Springfield Armory actually cut the Leade/Lead area of the Krag chamber.
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reiver
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by reiver »

Todd, very interesting and great results... I am not into casting rounds (except for my flintlock) but that is a great way to work up loads and control the variables. Nice shooting.

BRanger....thanks for the pics and info...so now we can say ' leade, lead, leed' lol, I like options. I am loading long and am going to try some 170 Gn. FMJRN...the round nose rounds are also flat based. It would be interesting to cast the chamber...I've never done that but it would be informative.

The CMP program, custom shop, will re barrel Krag's btw... and put the proper front sight in place while retaining the original rear ramp. They also re blue to a shiny finish or matte. Always an option but obviously not original. Lots of 'sporters' could benefit from that.
I had a long conversation with the shop boss a few weeks ago.... very nice guy and informative...sounds like a real professional operation and there is a 6-8 month wait due to work orders.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by butlersrangers »

"You pays your money and you votes your choice".

Putting a Criterion barrel on an original full-length Krag rifle gives you a high quality new barrel, with a .308" bore, a fresh chamber & throat area, but a facsimile of an original rifle.
The rear-sight screw holes will be a modern thread and won't accept original screws. The front-sight base will be a silver-soldered 'salvaged' original or a reproduction one. The barrel finish will be an 'approximation'.
Shooting performance will likely be limited by stock bedding, action harmonics, and sight limitations.
A good outcome would be a rebuilt Krag, that shoots 2 m.o.a. or less.

For me, a Criterion barrel only makes sense if you are making a 'shooter' out of a Krag with a totally 'roached' barrel.

Personally, I enjoy the reward and challenge of 'squeezing' accuracy out of an original Krag barrel, even with imperfections.

reiver
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by reiver »

BRanger... I get that... so you've seen the Criterion barrel done by that shop.... I am getting good accuracy now but the idea intrigued me seeing as this was a pre CMP rifle w/ replaced original barrel....like going home if you will :). Is the Criterion the exact same profile as original or not?

When all is said and done, and I have this totally dialed in I'll know then but am leaning to no presently.

Strangely, but experienced before on other rifles, my first cold shot is always off....then it groups. Like clock work.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by butlersrangers »

A couple of years ago, the CMP had a nice sale price on Criterion barrels for the Krag rifle and carbine. The Michigan Rifle & Pistol Association was very slow in getting my membership card to me, so I missed out.

I have no direct experience with the Krag Criterion barrel. I no longer have the 'cut-down' Krag, that I was going to re-barrel.

FWIW - I communicated with a couple of KCA members, who did have Criterion barrels put on Krags. The rifle and carbine involved both shot well, but probably no better than a Krag with a good original barrel.
(The original barrels in both of these cases were ruined and needed replacing).

Sight-screws and front-sight base mounting on the Criterion barrel created some issues. The Criterion Krag barrels were 'short chambered' so finish reaming was required.

reiver
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by reiver »

Thanks for the info.... they said they would 'test fire' so can't see how they could have shorted the chamber.

BTW, I just made my 29S scope on the Krag ( I like the friction adjusters, very tight and no hassle) into a 4x by putting the eyepiece of a WEE Weaver in place, swapping them. That is all it took, the tube length is the same and the front lens is too. All of the threads are the same (makes sense) so a very easy deal. The WEE W is now a clear 2.5x.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Krag 30/40 and accuracy vs. chamber/throat

Post by butlersrangers »

The Criterion Krag barrels have 'timed' or 'clocked' threads so the sight holes end up on "top" and the extractor-cut is aligned with the notch in the receiver.

The chamber requires slight 'finish-reaming', until the bolt will close on a 'Go-Gauge'.

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