.30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Ammunition, reloading, shooting, etc
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butlersrangers
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.30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by butlersrangers »

On the Gun Boards Forum, 'Rick the Librarian' posted an interesting thread about a type of 'sub-caliber' training adapter, made from 3 inch artillery shells.

This allowed cheap Coastal Artillery practice with 3 inch guns, using late Frankford Arsenal produced.30-40 cartridges, loaded with 'spitzer' bullets.

(This is quite different from the 'sub-caliber' artillery devices that used Krag and 1903 Springfield barreled-actions).
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Doubly Reincarnated
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by Doubly Reincarnated »

What was the purpose of these shells? With the other type, where the action with a full length barrel was centered in the breech, the purpose was to train the pointer and trainer to accurately aim the big gun. Probably done with a gun set up at a base's rifle range. What kind of accuracy could be expected from this dummy case? Was the barrel full length, just shortened for the drawing?

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butlersrangers
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by butlersrangers »

'Reincarnated' - The bottom inert artillery 'shell' is for the safe training & drilling of the rapid-fire gun crew in loading and simulating gun operation.

The top artillery 'shell' has been made into a 'sub-caliber adapter', with an 'artillery shell length' barrel, chambered for the .30-40 caliber cartridge.
(It states the barrel is rifled).

The .30-40 barrel-breech has 'flat tabs' to retain a .30-40 rifle cartridge in the chamber.
The 3 inch gun firing mechanism is actually utilized, to 'fire' the sub-caliber .30-40 cartridge, chambered in the 'adapter' barrel.

By contrast, the other types of 'sub-caliber artillery devices' that utilized a Krag or 1903 Springfield barreled/rifle-action, (either bolted externally to a gun or screwed into a gun's breech-threads), were actually 'fired' by the rifle-action striker-mechanism.

I envision the sub-caliber artillery practice devices, (used for the 'live firing' of rifle cartridges), were mainly used on board ships or at shore battery locations, rather than at rifle ranges.
The virtue was the economy of using rifle cartridges vs. the high cost of artillery shells, while training gunners.

I would imagine the accuracy would be quite remarkable for a rifled .30-40 barrel, well supported within an "adapted shell", chambered in a 3-inch gun mounted on a massive pedestal and fitted with optic sights ... talk about BENCH REST!

BTW - It appears a main application of the 'quick-firing 3-inch shore-battery guns', with their full-size high explosive artillery rounds, was to protect naval mines from being cleared by an enemy, using small vessels.
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FredC
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by FredC »

The subcaliber cartridge drawing is a little confusing, it shows a label pointing past the rifled section as "30 caliber subcaliber barrel". I think it is an early attempt at a cutaway detail. The rifling probably extends to the fuse end of the cartridge but is not shown because it would be hard to draw. I would not want to be the down range spotter marking the bullet strikes when they are practicing.


Drawing rules and practices back then were in sort of an infancy. I saw an exploded view of the Newton bolt action rifle. The description called Newton the "father of the exploded view". That drawing was from about the same time.

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butlersrangers
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by butlersrangers »

FredC - This .30-40 'sub-caliber artillery device' would make sense on a piece of your agricultural equipment.

Heck, you build it & fit it with some night-time optics ... a whole bunch of us will hightail it to Texas to join in the fun!
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FredC
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by FredC »

Br, did anyone on that forum mention how heavy that subcaliber cartridge was? Just guessing that it would take a couple of strong young men to load it into that 3 inch gun. Maybe 4 old geezers to do the same. My 4 wheeler is sort of light, it is electric which is good for sneaking up on pigs and coyotes but has a 400 lb load capacity with a driver and passenger. Maybe a custom built rail gun mounted on a swivel with the Krag receiver would be the answer? I remember a gunsmith talking about his custom rail gun for load development being able to put all the bullets into a single hole. Since we are dreaming here, we might as well dream big.

How much do you think I could charge? The neighbor across the road is having pig problems right now on a patch of winter rye grass. Stinking pigs only come out in the wee hours of the morning. You can check out Jager Pro on you tube, they charge somewhere around a $1000 a night for pig hunts using their 3o8 rifles with thermal scopes. They do use high dollar optics not budget stuff like me.

Doubly Reincarnated
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by Doubly Reincarnated »

I was in the USN from 1960 to 1965. Late in 1963, I was at the US Navy Gunnery School at Dam Neck, VA. I was there for a course on missile guidance systems, but the old Navy Gunnery School with real guns was still in operation. Back then, there were still WW2 ships in commission and the real gunnery school banged away 5 days a week with the old 3" 50s and 5" 38s as well as the newer 3" 70s and 5" 54s. The guns were "director controlled", from a remote station with radar, etc. But the old guns still had manual controls for use when the directors were disabled or if the guns were to be used at close range. The guns were on shore, but on mounts just like those on ships. The Gunner's Mates assigned to pointer & trainer jobs on the old ships had their initial instruction on a couple of guns permanently fitted with sub caliber devices, with the targets far enough away (200 yards?) and moving on a rail to give the men a challenge. If a gun was used with the rifle barrel inside the 3" shell case, wouldn't it have needed a special breech block fitted with a small firing pin? Again, a special setup for training, not an active service weapon.

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butlersrangers
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Re: .30-40 cartridge for coastal artillery practice

Post by butlersrangers »

This is all getting above my pay grade. FWIW - Such a thing existed in the early 1900's.

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