Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Historical threads originally posted to the 'Krag Forum' board
waterman
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Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by waterman »

I have some basic questions about Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags.  They were made as gallery barrels in 22 rimfire and as target barrels in 30/40. 

#1: How many of each were made? 

#2: When were they sold?

#3: Were they numbered? 

#4:  If they were numbered, was the numbering series different than the Stevens-Pope series for single shots?

#5:  How many were purchased by "National Guard" units in PA, NJ, Ohio & Washington DC? Not Washington State, as I have written earlier.

#6:  Did any of the converted "National Guard" rifles retain Stevens-Pope barrels after Chief of Ordnance Crozier ordered that they all be returned to service rifle condition?

#7:  What 22 rimfire cartridges were they chambered for?
Last edited by waterman on Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:46 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Good grief - if those are your basic questions, I'd hate to see your advanced ones!

With all humility and respect, I'm not sure ANY of them can be answered definitively:

(1) Very few
(2) roughly 1910-1930
(3) Do not know
(4) Do not know
(5) Do not know - answer, if any, likely buried in the NA
(6) Your guess is as good as any - NO government arms "recall" procedure ever achieved 100% compliance.
(7) I'd assume .22 long, some might have been .22LR

And the above truly miserable performance is based on 40+ years of studying the Krag. Nothing to be proud of.

waterman
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by waterman »

My questions were brought about by a friend's loan to me of a Model 1898 Gallery Practice Rifle, one of the very first ones produced by Springfield.  That rifle is chambered for 22 Extra Long, with a .226" groove diameter and 18" twist.  I began a bit of research as to why & how the GPR came about.  My references are the Brophy and Poyer books on the Krag, a 1st edition of Smith's book on Pope barrels and both of Campbell's Winchester Single Shot books. Here is what I have learned so far:

In 1900, the State Militia and State Guard units were armed with both the Trapdoor and the Krag. Each state had its own semi-autonomous organization.  Some $$ were received from the Militia Bureau. There was no "National Guard" until 1916, but I will use "NG" as an acronym.  Very little $$ were available for marksmanship training or ammunition.  Many units had little access to military rifle ranges.  The Model 1896 Gallery Practice Cartridge (.30 cal round ball) was so inaccurate that many NG training officers would not use it. 

In 1900, military smallbore shooting was brought to the US from England. The advantages for training were obvious & some NG marksmanship instructors got rifles & developed indoor ranges. About 1901, Harry Pope had designed an accurate 22 rimfire barrel for the Krag.  Stevens saw a market and the Stevens-Pope barrels were produced.  The barrels were bored eccentrically, with the bore in the center at the muzzle but at the 12:00 position at the breech, so that Krag bolt & extractor could be used.  The barrel was designed so that any gunsmith or NG company armorer could turn an issue Krag into a gallery training rifle.

NG Inspectors of Musketry for Ohio (Charles Winder), PA, NJ (Dr. Walter Hudson?) and Washington DC (W. Milton Farrow) purchased multiple barrels in 1901-1904.  How many I do not know.  My guess is at least 200 to 400 barrels, issued at about 5 per company.

The rifles produced immediate results.  Marksmanship scores increased and galley shooting with the Krag became popular.

Note: Revisions are to replace Washington State with Washington DC and to add the names of the NG Inspectors of Musketry where known.
Last edited by waterman on Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

waterman
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by waterman »

Stevens made S-P conversion barrels in both rifle & carbine lengths. There had to be enough S-P conversions in use to attract the attention of the US Army Chief of Ordnance Gen. Wm. Crozier. Just a few would have raised an official eyebrow but not much else. In 1904, Crozier officially ordered all NG units to convert the S-P Krags back to standard Krags because they were all US Army property & the conversions were never authorized.

The NG officers argued that their conversions produced results and asked that Springfield produce the Gallery Practice Rifle in 22 rimfire for the NG as a substitute for the S-P conversions. Crozier agreed and ordered Springfield to make 500 GPRs for the NG. The Springfield Armory Annual Report for FY 1906 says that the 500 rifles were 50 % complete. The FY 1907 report says that an additional 341 GPRs had been completed and were issued to the militia.

That would put the date for the last of the Stevens-Pope conversions in NG use to be 1907 or 1908. Those privately owned would have probably remained as conversions.

How many were there? And were they numbered in a separate series? The only barrel number reported is Smith's 832. That is right in the middle of the Stevens-Pope target rifle barrel series and tells us nothing. Another number or two might help.

I have been told that a Stevens-Pope Krag sold in 2000 for about $2000 and that one sold in 2008 for $2500. A month ago, one was available for $2900. Is this the same rifle appearing again and again at an ever-inflating price? The photos I saw made the rifle look very rough. The seller did not describe the bore (the only redeeming feature) and would not tell me the barrel number. Stevens-Pope Krags are rare, but are they $2900 rare in rather rough condition?

What 22 rimfire shells were they chambered for? Brophy tells us that the twist was one turn in 28". But he provides a reprint from a Stevens-Pope catalog that says any 22 Long Rifle cartridge can be used.

waterman
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by waterman »

Brophy's 28-inch twist and a Stevens catalog saying that Long Rifle cartridges are OK does not work for me.  My Winchester Winder Musket is chambered for 22 Short (so stamped on the barrel) and has a 20" twist (not 26" per Winchester standard).  Standard Velocity Long Rifle cartridges do not shoot accurately at ranges beyond 25 yards in my rifle, but ordinary High Velocity Long Rifle cartridges will shoot rather well (< 3") at 100 yards.

Peters marketed a 22 rimfire labeled "Stevens-Pope Armory" cartridges. A photo of one of the cartridges looks a lot like a 22 Long Rifle.  Winchester marketed a "U.S. Armory Gallery Practice Cartridge".  All that makes me think that a slightly quicker twist, maybe 18" was used.

Pope left Stevens about 1905 and that pretty much killed off the Stevens-Pope marketing efforts.  About the same time, Winchester brought out their rimfire Musket with Krag sights.

Modified to reflect more recent knowledge about twist rates.
Last edited by waterman on Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Thank you very much for the info. I was even further off than I thought! :-(

Ned Butts
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by Ned Butts »

Very interesting information!!
Thank you for posting it!

waterman
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by waterman »

My guesses and attempt to tell a story about the Stevens-Pope barrels does not answer the questions about surviving barrels and surviving conversions. The photo in Smith's book is of barrel 832, a privately-owned 30" conversion, in a carbine stock. The photos in Poyer's book are of a 30" rifle barrel and a 22" carbine barrel, both in the Wm. Mook collection at the time the photos were taken. Brophy's book shows a photo of a 30" barrel in a rifle. Brophy's text says "Of all barrels inspected except one, the barrel length has been 30 inches. The one exception was of carbine length." How many barrels did Brophy inspect?

That is photo evidence of 3 rifles and 1 carbine surviving in collections, plus the one very rough rifle I saw photos of a month ago. Plus (maybe) the rifle sold in 2000 and the rifle sold in 2008. That's at most 7 rifles and 1 carbine. To me, that implies not more than a 2 % survival rate for the 22 rimfire conversions. Does any one else have one? Where did they go?

Brophy also wrote about Stevens-Pope barrels for the 30/40 cartridge. He wrote that he had never seen one. Has anybody ever seen one?

Brophy also wrote about Pope barrels on 10 Krag rifles for the U. S. Army's 1903 Palma Match Team sent to England. In 1903, those would have been Stevens-Pope barrels because of Pope's contract with Stevens. The Army won the match but was disqualified because the Krags did not have service barrels. Have any of those rifles survived?

allegro
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by allegro »

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Last edited by allegro on Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:44 am, edited 7 times in total.

reincarnated
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Re: Stevens-Pope barrels for Krags

Post by reincarnated »

Reincarnated here. I used to be Waterman, but got bumped off the forum. So now I am Reincarnated. That's better than being resurrected. If you have had a resurrection lasting for more than 4 hours, you are supposed to seek medical help. ;) (& groan)

Milgunsguy, thanks very much. That brings the tally up to a minimum of 5 rifles and 1 carbine and a maximum of 8 rifles and 1 carbine for which there is some evidence. The Stevens-Pope serial number should be on the underside of the barrel. You will need to remove the stock to see it. It would be greatly appreciated if you would locate the serial number and report it here.

The serial number of the Krag action does not tell us much. We know that Krags were used between 1901 and 1904 by NG units in Ohio, PA, NJ and Washington State. The action (and rifle) was either assigned to one of those organizations or was owned by some civilian who bought a S-P conversion barrel on the open market, either from Stevens or from someone who acquired a used S-P barrel.

The dovetail for the front sight enabled the user to install a target-type front sight.

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