Schrodinger's headspace - a problem that isn't?

[IgnoramusRex]

I recently added a 1898 krag rifle to my collection of US Military rifles. I have SCOURED the forums before posting so as not to be redundant.

It's in nice shape, the bore is a clean as might be expected. No pitting. Stock is in fantastic shape. Seems functional. However, as I do with all firearms of this vintage I took it to a local gunsmith to have it looked at just to make sure it's shootable. This is when my headache began.

Gunsmith checked the rifle and agrees that its in great shape but says that it's about twelve thousandths (.012") excessive in headspace. He says it might be remedied by a new bolt but didn't mention that the bolt was deficient or had signs of peening on the lugs. EDIT: I don't know what gauges he used or how he measured it. He had the rifle for a couple weeks

He said "you're probably fine to shoot it with factory ammo in original spec, the chambers on old milsurps are often 'generous', but it would be best to fireform brass." His solution for the headspace was turning the barrel back 1 turn and reaming-which he didn't imply was a great idea. I know it headspaces off the rim not the shoulder, so I understand there's two ways to fireform.

I have read SO much conflicting info. Some people say "headspace is critical you'll shoot your eye out etc." Some people say "headspace is often a little long in old milsurps, it was designed that way, its FINE if the gun is fine".

I see three options. Help me run the sanity test.
Option 1: buy a new old stock bolt body and gauge. See if its a bolt problem.
Option 2: shoot a few rounds, compare length, check casings. Enjoy.
Option 3: Send the rifle to CMP and have em put a new barrel on it. Enjoy.

NOTE: I'm not super confident in this gunsmith, but he's the only game in town.

[Ned Butts]

Option 4: Buy, rent or borrow a field gauge and check it your self, then refer to Option:2

[Whig]

Ned has good advice. Headspacing is rarely a problem in these old Krags. Very generous tolerances and great chamber design.

Most gunsmiths don't know squat about Krags. Find someone who does or check it yourself.

We always advise saving your brass, reloading and keeping brass specific to each individual Krag. That way the cases will be fire formed to your Krag's chamber and you only need to neck resize which saves over-working the brass and it lasts longer. Many of us even anneal our cases to last much longer.

Good honest concern you have. Welcome to KCA!

Good luck. Thanks for your question. Post pictures!

[IgnoramusRex]

Pics as requested.

Thanks for the input. Ordered a field gauge and will report back.

[butlersrangers]

'IgnoramusRex' - Welcome to the KCA Forum. You have a nice looking Krag.

As a rule, U.S. Krags do not show 'head-space' problems.

The .30-40 cartridge being rimmed, simplifies 'head-space'. In the U.S. Krag, it is simply the distance from the bolt-face to the barrel breech-face.

The Krag case rim thickness is usually about .064 inches. Most Krags will probably measure about .070 inches clearance between bolt-face and barrel breech-face. So, normally there is some 'free travel'.

I have a "Field" Head-Space Gauge that measures .073 inches.
None of my Krag bolts close on this gauge, using just light finger pressure on a 'stripped' Bolt.

I just 'neck-size' my Brass and it interchanges in nine different Krags.

FWIW - Even in the event of a case head separation, the .30-40 rim provides a gas seal that keeps gases and pressure in the barrel and prevents them from flowing into the action.

It is nice to have a Field Gauge to check rifles. But, I've fired many military pieces content with a good physical inspection and careful scrutiny of fired Brass.

"New Old Stock" original Krag bolts are available for $55 from 'Granpa's Gunparts' (in the KCA Classifieds). These beautiful bolts usually solve any worn bolt-lug problems.

Also, FredC has a couple of these NOS Bolts for-sale.

Hey, Schrodinger! Have you seen my cat?

[psteinmayer]

Not much left to say that Whig, Ned and Butlersrangers haven't already said.

Welcome to the forum!!!

[FredC]

Iggy,
Notice in Butlersrangers photo he removed the firing pin and extractor when doing the gauging, this is important. If it closes on the field gauge that is still not the end of the matter. Check for and aft movement of the bolt. Just a few thousands of an inch is still OK.

A shim .004 thick cut out of an aluminum can between the bolt and the gauge would probably still be OK. 1/4 round and stuck into the bolt recess with a spot of grease would be ideal.

When you get the gauge and do your checking do not force the bolt handle closed. Light pressure with you pinky finger should not be exceeded.

If things do not work out you could send me your bolt for measurement to see if a new one would improve things. I do have a gauge for measuring bolts.

Old thread on same subject:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1568638095/0

[butlersrangers]

My Head-Space Gauge will work with an 'assembled' bolt, but, 'feeling' the Gauge Fit, and Resistance, is 'more better' with irrelevant stuff removed. :)

'FredC' - Thanks for 'linking' to that old 'head-space' thread. It still makes my head hurt to read the whole thing!

Hey, Fred! With the Quarantine in place, why not use your considerable talents to make a better Krag Head-Space Guage?

Never mind - You are probably building Respirators!

[IgnoramusRex]

Thanks all for the advice.

I removed the guts from the bolt body. The bolt has seen better days (pic attached) and I'm a tad concerned about this hairline of discoloration rear of the lug but can't run out and get dye penetrant to see if its an actual fissure because COVID. A new bolt body might be in order.

I've checked headspace on several '06 rifles before so I'll definitely follow the advice of pinky pressure only.

[FredC]

My Head-Space Gauge will work with an 'assembled' bolt, but, 'feeling' the Gauge Fit, and Resistance, is a 'more better' with irrelevant stuff removed. :)

'FredC' - Thanks for 'linking' to that old 'head-space' thread. It still makes my head hurt to read the whole thing!

Hey, Fred! With the Quarantine in place, why not use your considerable talents to make a better Krag Head-Space Guage?

Never mind - You are probably build Respirators!

Maybe you can use the field or other gauges with the firing pin and extractor assembled, but feeling for free play will be harder and the risk of damaging the firing pin if the trigger gets pulled accidentally. Maybe some of the gauges have a hole to clear the firing pin, in that case nothing harmed.
The hardened extractor jumping over the hardened gauge rim would not be good for either.

For function testing I see nothing wrong with commercial gauges on the market. I wanted closer so I measured a bunch of case rims and found one that was .063 thick and set the barrel back for .002 free play with a dial indicator. Head space on my sporter is exactly .065.

M95 respirators, had almost a full box of best use by Mar 2017. Called the local EMS they were happy to take 1/2 the box. Got plenty left for the rest of the year for plowing on the open cab tractor.

Iggy,
I see some lines of rust else where on that bolt, probably a little sweat at the points of contact on the receiver. I would wait till you get your field gauge.
PS> I did a correction to my previous post.