1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

U.S. Military Krags
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

In the 1920s and 1930s there was probably little market for surplus sub-caliber devices. Parts and labor were cheap and available.
There was a market for low cost Krag rifles adapted for Hunting. Bannerman, Stokes Kirk, and Sedgley are well known for cobbling together salvaged parts to make improvised, sellable guns.

Worth noting:
Krag receiver rings often seem to have other symbols or letters stamped on the front face, in addition to the proof "P" and barrel index-mark. I assume these are inspection stamps.

It is interesting that Mark's receiver has a "W" at the 6 o'clock position. This begs the question if this "W" might have denoted a receiver earmarked for use at Watervliet Arsenal?

FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

Got back kind of late. So I need to take back my suggestion that the Krag receiver is would be too hard to stamp after heat treating. Evidentially the proof stamp was done afterwards.

Mark bought this thing as a Krag carbine, IF the photo shows all to be carbine "correct" could his be more valuable as a carbine, especially if it was assembled by SA? The front sight looks good and not a 1903 modified sight.

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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

'FredC' - As always, you bring up interesting points.

I have been thinking about and trying to understand the process, sequence, and rationale of Springfield stamps and marks for years. (British, German, and French ones, too)!

The marks mean something. They were done with a purpose and communicated information to someone at sometime.

I once assumed gun makers stamped metal components when they were 'soft' and before they were heat-treated and finished.

However, final inspection and proof stamps make little sense if they are done before a component is Finished and Correct.

Now, I don't know for sure and freely admit my puzzlement.

Some U.S. Krag markings look like they were done in the back room of a 'Khyber Pass' gun-shop. There are lots of funny hieroglyphics around the magazine opening and on the back of the bolt-handle root, odd 'steel lot' symbols, periodic changes in serial number size, style, and font. Some numbers and letters are very difficult to read 'correctly'. Some stamps appear very primitive given that they were done in a relatively modern 'machine age'. The system appears like it was always changing. Such is the charm of Krags!

I agree with Dick Hosmer. The OP's Krag did not leave Springfield Armory as it is now assembled. SA would never have compromised a Gun Stock by gouging out all that extra wood. It is not a model 1898 carbine. The most interesting aspect of this Krag is the novelty of the receiver!

We have not seen a close picture of the front-sight. So I am not sure if it is a carbine barrel. (This is actually irrelevant. All types of Krag parts were in the hands of surplus dealers). This is a 'parts gun' assembled outside SA.

One thing that impresses me about SA 'markings' is that they don't seem to disrupt or displace the surrounding metal. Oddly, sometimes a SA marking will be inconsistent in its depth. Clarity of letters and numbers is variable.

IMO-Fake marks are noticeable because they disrupt surrounding metal and finish.ImageImageImage

FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

BR,
Good point on the no raised metal around the "US Springfield Amory and serial number.

"One thing that impresses me about SA 'markings' is that they don't seem to disrupt or displace the surrounding metal. Oddly, sometimes a SA marking will be inconsistent in its depth. Clarity of letters and numbers is variable. Fake marks are often noticeable because they disrupt surrounding metal and finish."

The only way to have done that is to buff them before heat treat.
The proof "P" on the front to of the receiver, does it have raised metal around it? If so it and any other marks like it would have been done after heat treatment.

I just want Mark's carbine to be a one of the kind original worth a million bucks. Then we could all wish we had one also.

Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by Marksc »

He are some more numbers that is on front of receiver. Nothing stamped on the gun has any raised material around any stampings.Image

Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by Marksc »

Here is a better picture I found of the receiver.Image

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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

IMHO - "P" and other letters on front of receiver ring are clean and free of deforming. Sometimes the "P" is not deep or clear.

Somehow, SA seems to have cleaned up around stamped numbers and letters, even if the steel was hardened??? It makes me ponder.

I posted a picture of a receiver that shows SPRINGFIELD heavily struck at both ends, but, lightly struck in the middle. All I can envision is that the Die had begun to bend?

FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

Sure wish someone had asked all these questions before all the guys doing the work had died.
When hand stamping stuff you sometimes do not hold the stamp square and get a very heavy impression on one side and not anything on the other. You try to fix it by setting the letter punch in the deep side and rocking it over then striking it again. About half the time it works real good. The other half not so much.
But on these long words like Springfield Amory, they would have had a single punch with all the letters or a frame with replaceable elements, probably applied with a lever press or the like. Today they would have a roller die that would travel the length applying one letter at a time. But not sure if they had that capability back then or not.
Several possible causes for that one that was deeper on the ends, the receiver could be low in the middle or if misapplied on the first impression lined up by hand with too much correction on the second application.
All those marks by the bolt recess and others visible on the assemble rifle I would expect to be filed or buffed before hardening. If it was possible to do after heat treat the only ones with raised metal I would expect would be final proof marks and such. If filed or buffed it would have take the final case hardening colors off.
One thing I know for sure I was not there to see how it was done!
If someone wants to buy that pile of receivers and send them to me, I will do a high magnification analysis and give you all a more educated guess. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/706311318

Went back and looked at Mark's proof mark and it does look like a file was applied to it after stamping, maybe they did a second tempering to get color and slight corrosion resistance after it was stamped? What do you guys see on other proof marks?
A second tempering would be done at a slightly lower temperature. For those that do not know tempering is usually a second process done after the hardening. Double tempering is not common.

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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

Here is a peek at "P" mark of two more model 1898 Krag receivers.

1st two pics are of a '98 receiver made around November, 1899. The "P" is almost impossible to identify as a P. There are various scratches from stone or file work on receiver face. A lot of the case-color survives.

The last two pics are a '98 receiver made around April, 1903. Markings are clear, but, the finish is probably Armory refurbish prior to WW1. Also has a "DD" stamped on front face of receiver.ImageImageImageImage

FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

BR,
I could not see any raised metal on those stamps. It looks like each was filed or buffed after stamping. Some time ago you mentioned the processes done to each part as far as finishing. If I remember right the barrel and receiver had different types of finishing. Do you think they pulled them apart one last time before finishing after proofing?
Was refinishing part of the arsenal refurbs?

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