1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

U.S. Military Krags
User avatar
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by Dick Hosmer »

Proofing was one of the first things done, before ANY finishing operations. Note that the last "proofmark" (actually more of an inspection for functioning, since the barrel was deemed good at that time) was the (P) which was struck in the wood - no worries about buffing over. Yes, the receiver and barrel had different finishes - were they disassembled after once being joined? I was not there, but I'd have to say "NO". You can get a fairly decent picture of Krag fabrication from reading OM22. VERY little changed between 1878 and 1892.

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

As I understand it, Krag barrels were tested with special proof cartridges (developing 70,000 lbs. per square inch) after the bore was drilled and an interim chamber reamed.

This happened prior to the barrels being rifled. The un-rifled barrels must have been screwed on to some type of 'master action' for proof firing. (They likely were stamped with a "P" at this point).

After rifling, the barrels underwent all of the finishing operations: multiple straightening's, final reaming, 'timing of threads, drilling & threading sight-holes, brazing front sight block in dovetail, and 'browning' (bluing).

Krag actions went through their intricate manufacturing process and were proofed sometime after heat-treat. I suspect, the actions were screwed onto some type of special 'master barrels' for testing.

I don't think a Krag action met its ultimate barrel until final assembly. Close tolerances and gauging must have allowed the index marks to 'line up' as the finished barrel was screwed into the finished receiver.

'Timed Threads' & parts finished before assembly - It blows my mind! (Not how it would likely be done today).

Once Krag rifles or carbines were assembled, I believe a percentage were subjected to firing another proof cartridge, all were tested for function, and received the "Circled P" on the stock wrist.

I could have this process wrong in part or whole. I base my understanding on the "Scientific America" description of Springfield Armory manufacture of the Krag.

I've also attached a later description of the final proofof 1903 Springfield rifles. By that time, all assembled rifles were proof fired before receiving "P" stamp on stock. ImageImage

User avatar
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by Dick Hosmer »

It may be that there was an intervening process between the TD and the '03 which called for a proof cartridge AFTER assembly - just don't know.

Distinction needs to be made between "proofing" and "guaging". While they needed to weed out any bad apples, they HAD to have pretty well satisified themselves that the barrel was sound before expending a lot of labor on it. No one expected a rifle to fail structurally after assembly.

As to timed threads, how else would you do it? The extractor cut has to line up - it isn't made later after they thought the barrel was 'tight enough'. They were clearly able to index the threading and machining of the parts such as that when the witness marks aligned, all was good.

User avatar
psteinmayer
Posts: 2677
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by psteinmayer »

Just a thought swimming around in my head about the stamping of numbers and lettering on the receivers. Is it possible that the numbers were pressed rather than stamped... as in a slow hydraulic press operation as opposed to striking with a hammer? It seems to me that slowly pressing the stampings rather than a quick sharp strike would be less likely to produce raised material around the number/letter.

Just a thought anyway...

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

The metal has to be displaced whatever speed it is done at. I would guess that a fixture was used for the US SA stamp with a hand lever toggle set up to get enough pressure. I have used and built air toggle presses and you probably use hand operated toggle press to reload. The serial number could have had a stamp holder with replaceable elements or rotating wheels. It may have been semi automatic as it would be difficult to number receivers all day long without using the same number multiple times and skipping others. When you have done production machining for 40+ years it is easy to visualize all the things that can and do go wrong.

User avatar
butlersrangers
Posts: 9827
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by butlersrangers »

Bumping an old thread and discussion from 2017, with interesting content on "sub-caliber" devices.

Too bad the KCA doesn't use "Stickies". This thread started as a 'head-scratcher' mystery carbine and eventually took us to Artillery Sub-Caliber Devices.

User avatar
Dick Hosmer
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by Dick Hosmer »

The missing serial is a puzzle. Theoretically, it should not exist - all jokes about Monday and Friday guns aside. They went through too many inspections for something like that to slip by. I respect your comment about using a straight-edge - perhaps the entire receiver was turned in a lathe, rather than gouging out the numbers leaving a dish - BUT - that would have disturbed the other stamping, to say nothing of damaging the casehardening. So, my GUESS would be that it was a defective/rejected receiver which never passed through as a complete gun, but somehow found its' way thereto over the last 100+ years. As such, I'd think long and hard before shooting it. Is there a large "C" stamped on it anywhere?

FredC
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: Dewees Texas

Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question

Post by FredC »

It could have been pulled out of the scrap heap, but I like this idea personally: viewtopic.php?p=27492#p27492 If sub caliber devices were made from unfinished but good receivers this was done after the contract with the inventors was over and no need to serialize them for royalties.

A link to sub caliber ammo discussion: viewtopic.php?p=42647#p42647
The fact that rounds made with spitzers that would not work well with any official Krag sights supports the idea that sub caliber devices were built and used. The idea that Bannerman and others that were selling Krag rifles and unofficial carbines would run out and use sub caliber and otherwise good unfinished receivers seems very plausible.

I still think the serial numbers were done before heat treat. The serial number punches would have had a very short life if done post heat treating as the working surface of the punches would be only a little harder than the receiver.

Post Reply