1899 Philippines Constabulary Carbine Production Numbers

[skillest]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if any of you could help me with figuring out many of the 1899 Constabulary Carbines were produced.

I'm currently writing a book on krags that covers mostly Danish and Norwegian models, but I am also including American krags. One of my main problems right now is I have 3 sources that all conflict with each other on how many Philippines Constabulary Carbines were produced.

In the book “The Krag Rifle Story” by Franklin Mallory he claims that Springfield had produced 4,074 carbines from 1906-1915, Rock Island produced 613 from 1912-1914, and Manila produced 5,100 in 1907 only, totalling a production of 10,417 carbines.

However, William S. Brophy in his book “The Krag Rifle” claims that only a maximum of 8,685 could have ever been assembled.

Joe Oyner in his book “The American Krag Rifle and Carbine” claims similar information to Mallory’s, but states that a only total of 9,667 were produced.

"Development of the Krag-Jørgensen Rifle for the US Military: A Technical Assessment" has info on the Philippines but no production information.

Do any of you have additional sources that either claim the same things as these sources? Or even sources that claim differing totals of production? Any info would greatly help.

Thanks!

[Dick Hosmer]

You may have a problem with sorting the PCRs from "school guns", which are basically identical in appearance. I would think the only ones actually destined for, and used by, the Constabulary would be those altered at Manila, which had a well-equipped depot capable of most anything short of actual manufacture. The arms converted stateside would have gone to the colleges for what would become the ROTC program. With one possible - as yet unverified - example, no PCRs are thought to be in the US. Also, the correct name of the third Krag author noted was the late Joe Poyer, a friend of mine.

[skillest]

Thanks for the reply!

From my understanding, only 350 of the carbines were made for the Girard College for shooting sports by springfield, and then an additional batch of less than 1000 were made for Cadet use at the US military Academy. The total production numbers from these books include the college guns if i recall correctly, which is why its throwing me off.

Rock Island is known to have made at least 613 conversions. Mostly guessing because of conflicting reports (and because I don't have the exact numbers in hand at this very moment) but Springfield made at the very least 2000 in total, but one source i talked about earlier shows us that over 4000 were made which is VERY different. One of these books even states Springfield made a couple hundred more and putting them in reserve for Philippines Constabulary troops. Also, since Manila production was 5100, it is very close but technically wouldn't have met the requirements to outfit all of their troops as they had around 5400 members. So numbers i have found have been very conflicting, and I'm wondering what other sources there could be for these carbines production numbers.

Its known that american rifles did ship to the Philippines, but the majority of rifles in the Philippines at the time were rifles sent to Manila for conversion.

Also oops! Mispelt the name. Thanks for correcting me, and thank your friend for the resource!

[butlersrangers]

Dick, I did not know that Joe Poyer was deceased. He must have been a very interesting and organized student of firearms.

I find his 'Krag Book' very useful. I have a 'dog-eared' copy, that I take with me on trips and to gun shows. There are penciled notes (I have made) on the inside covers of serial # ranges for models and part changes. There are margin notes correcting minor mistakes, when found.

I wish I had met and known Joe Poyer, personally. I know, I would have liked him!

"Skillest" - It is important that you not confuse West Point - "Cadet Rifles" with the model 1899 carbines, that were "altered for knife bayonet and gun sling". (Philippine Constabulary Rifles and School Rifles)

Also, some "colleges", such as Girard, were 'secondary-education' private military schools. The students were junior-high and high-school age boys. These 'School Rifles', (modified carbines), were probably used as drill rifles and for blank firing in mock battles.

The purchased altered carbine "School Rifles" likely became the private property of the institutions.
Frank Mallory's second edition of "The Krag Rifle Story" has a list showing 1,385 altered carbines, being sold to specific military schools, (but, no serial numbers).

I imagine, the Philippine Constabulary Rifles, and other Constabulary equipment, became the property of the Philippine Government (and not the U.S. Government or military).

It should be noted that some private military schools, like Kemper in Missouri, had standard, (but, some visibly damaged), Krags in early 20th Century photos. (I don't know which entity actually owned these arms or if they were merely on loan).

Also, it is relevant that companies, like Bannerman's and Stokes Kirk, offered privately altered "military like" arms and cadet models to schools, patriotic, and fraternal organizations.

The Krag P.C. Rifles and School rifles have always been a bit of a puzzle, an area of poor understanding and outright fraud.

The exact number, of a specific Krag model made, is probably not as important as having good understanding of the work, that was actually done at Springfield Armory, U.S. Arsenals, and Depots.

[skillest]

Hi butlersrangers,

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the 1896 Cadet Rifles issued to West Point cadets were these Constabulary carbines. I understand that 404 of the 1896 pattern rifles that were actual "1896 Cadet Rifle" models were issued to cadets from West Point, and 395 or so got modified into regular service rifles later on in 1900. I just meant that there are some of these carbines that seemed to have been issued to other Army Cadets in the US. In Mallory's book, he states that there are a few Philippine carbine patterns that were produced with 1898 and 1896 receivers, and they were most likely for use with Cadets rather than the Constabulary. Specifically, he states that 39 models 1898 carbines were converted to this pattern of carbine (3 by Springfield, and 36 by Rock Island), and that examples of philippine carbines with 1896 receivers have been "observed."

Also, Mallory states the original request for the pattern of the carbine that eventually became the Constabulary Carbine had been at the behest of Captain P.L. Miles, who is referred to in the book as "Commandant of the Cadets at Girard College in Philadelphia in 1900". He also says that production on these carbine models would not start until General Henry T. Allen of the Philippine Constabulary would request a shortened pattern of the Krag, as the long rifle was too large for the shorter-statured native Filipino members of the Constabulary. Then, the first 350 Philippine Constabulary pattern carbines were given Cadets at the Girard College in 1905, with the rest being produced for the Constabulary. Brophy in his book also says more or less the same thing, adding that "carbines arrived in 1906 and were immediately issued to the various Constabulary units". The use of "arrived" suggests to me that the American production of carbines wasn't only for domestic use and that Springfield and Rock Island Constabulary Carbines were sent overseas. If the carbines used were exclusively Manila production in the Philippines, I doubt he would have said they arrived in the Philippines in 1906, and would rather have said "finished production in 1906", or something similar. I believe I may not have the second edition, unfortunately, as I don't see anywhere in the book where it says that 1,385 were altered specifically for military schools.

Mallory on page 105 of his book also states "Although the total authorized strength of the Philippine Constabulary during that time period was only 325 officers and 5,000 men, the demand for the Philippine Constabulary rifle was so great that the 7,375 remaining Model 1899 carbines in the US Arsenals were set aside in 1911 as a reserve for the constabulary. During the same year, 2,400 new Krag Carbine barrels were manufactured at Springfield to support this program. Some were made from new Krag rifle barrels on hand." this would suggest to me that many Springfield produced 1889 carbines at least, whether they were in the constabulary pattern or not, did make their way to the Philippines, rather than the only existing models in the Philippines being that converted by the Manila arsenal.

I am aware of the Bannerman and Stokes Kirk fakes as well, and it seems that many of them used different front sights, and are just cut down long rifles made to resemble the carbines, but none of the numbers in these books include the fakes in the total production numbers listed.

Brophy does state in his book that "Only a few of the modified carbines were reported as Model 1898 Carbines, but modified stocks, which were available through the Ordnance supply system, could have been used as easily on a Model 1898 carbine as on a Model 1899 carbine. Therefore, an accurate breakdown of the exact number of each kind converted is not available." so maybe there just isn't a truly accurate source as to how many of these carbine patterns exist. Either way, all I'm looking for is sources for the production of this general carbine pattern, whether they were issued to the Constabulary or used domestically in the States. As you said, the exact number may not be exactly needed, but stuff like production amount and serial number range are always helpful when researching the rifles, especially if fakes are known to exist.

[Dick Hosmer]

Two things to always consider when evaluating a specific specimen are quality of workmanship and uniformity of finish. SA's work was impeccable - it is hard to find the stock plug on my [JFC] stamped "full-stock carbine". All of the LEGITIMATE specimens were produced over 100 years ago, and no matter who made them, should - by now - have a pretty darn uniform appearance. I've seen examples put forward, even a couple here, that look like a HS wood-shop project. There is also a quirk to the bayonet lug that trips up the fakers. In short, it's gonna be tough to ever provide a truly definitive answer.

[butlersrangers]

Frank Mallory's "Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, has information that did not appear in the earlier edition.

One example may be these tables, that appeared in the 2nd edition's chapter, covering Philippine Constabulary and School Rifles.

(FWIW - In 1906, I suppose Krag carbines and carbine parts were no longer viewed as useful to the U.S. Army or National Guard.
The 1903 Springfield rifle with a 23 1/2 inch barrel, had replaced the need for a carbine).

[butlersrangers]

Here are some pictures of School Rifles at Girard College (Philadelphia, ww2 era) and Northwestern Military Academy (near Chicago, 1915).

IMHO - School Rifles were probably much abused by Drill, Blanks, and likely Gaudy Refinishing!

[skillest]

Thank you very much for sharing those charts and images, the charts aren't in the version of the book I have! Though, the charts are confusing me a bit. Is the second chart just representing what rifles were sold out of the entire batch listed in the chart titled "Carbines Altered To Take Knife Bayonet And Sling"? Or is that second chart an entirely different production line?

If they are separate production, then the naming of the charts seems odd, as then it is showing the ones made in the Philippines as rifles that aren't called Philippines Constabulary Carbines, but the ones sold to American schools are? I might be missing something, but I appreciate y'alls help on this!

[butlersrangers]

IMHO - Mallory labeled the second chart poorly; he should have stayed with the same label he used on the first chart.

The altered carbines that went to the listed schools, must have been from the count for Springfield Armory and Rock Island.

BTW - Girard College is at Philadelphia, not Baltimore, as Mallory indicated.