Building rear sight

[geofois]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to Krags and new to this site so it's great to be here. I have an original 1898 Krag Cavalry Carbine made in 1898. It looks like it came with an 1896 rear sight. I imagine they were building them and using up what was in stock. I ordered an 1898 sight base, 1903 rear sight ladder with peep, hinge pin, and base spring. I was wondering what was the difference between 1902 and 1903 sights. The 1903 was on sale so ordered it but they seem to be the same. I don't want to mess with the wood on my hand guard so I plan on measuring and altering the length of the 1898 sight base since it looks like it has more metal to the rear of the rear base screw than my 1896 base does. Or what do you guys think. Technically it could have come with the 1898 sight so maybe I should remove just enough wood to get it to fit perfectly?

krag.jpg (249.34 KiB) Viewed 1760 times

[butlersrangers]

'geofois' - Welcome to the KCA Forum. You have a nice looking Krag carbine.

Your questions and photo will raise a lot of questions for other KCA members!

Is your model 1896 sight a carbine sight with increments on the leaf going to '20' and with "C" markings on the leaf and base? (The rifle version only goes to '18').

What is the serial number (or # range) of your receiver?

Only about 5,002 model 1898 carbines were produced.
They generally fall within the range from 117,500 to 134,000, mixed in with lots of rifles.

Model 1898 carbines were built with a shorter carbine stock (30"), that used a sight-protecting barrel-band. The stock also had a 'bar & saddle-ring' on the left-side of the stock wrist.

Your stock is the longer model 1899 carbine stock. It was used on rebuilt 1898 carbines to make them identical to model 1899 carbines.
Your handguard is the model that was used to protect 1896 carbine rear-sights on carbines with the 'longer' carbine stocks.

It would be very unwise to alter a good original Krag handguard. Original handguards are in demand and valuable!

For shooting purposes, it is nice to have a rear-sight with adjustable windage.
I guess that is what you are trying to accomplish by putting together a 'parts sight', using a m-1898 base and m-1903 leaf. This makes a good civilian utility sight.

(BTW - Springfield Armory did not reuse the 1898 sight bases, when the m-1898 sight was discontinued).

I would recommend that you just use your 'parts-sight' without a hand-guard or acquire a model 1898/1902 handguard.

(It is wise to store loose Krag handguards with a Quarter and Penny twisted into the 'spring-clips' to counteract the strong inward pressure, which can split the wood).

The 1902 and 1903 sight leaves are very similar. The 1903 leaf was developed for the early 1903 Springfield rifle. The leaf has fine intermediate range increments. The 1903 slide 'locking knob' was machined so a rimless .30-03 cartridge-case could be used to tighten or release the screw. The 1903 'locking knob' found its way onto 1902 Krag sights, when broken lock-screws needed replacing.

[butlersrangers]

Attached are two photos of a 'parts-sight' that I made years ago from a m-1898 rifle-sight base and a 1902 sight leaf. It worked very well on a carbine that was a restoration-project, in progress.

It has since been replaced with a real model 1902 carbine sight. Only about 1,000 model 1902 carbine rear-sights were made. (Ironically, on this one, the 'knob' of the slide locking-screw is of the 1903 type).

Photos 3 & 4 show the real model 1902 carbine rear-sight.

(Note - The 1898 and 1902 sight bases use different springs. The elevation radius is low on the 1898 rifle base, because it was for a faster velocity cartridge. It is not quite as low as the radius of the 1902 carbine base).

[geofois]

Thanks guys, this is some great info. I love the look of the hand guard and wasn't really planning on altering it. I'm not good enough in any case to attempt that. I should have ask here first but can I use my current sight screws to mount the 1898 sight base? The sight leaf goes to 18 so must be the rifle one.

My serial is 138xxx. One list I saw put it made in 1899 and another 1898 so my wishful thinking stuck with 1898. The stock has a stamp with cursive letters and 1901 so maybe it was redone in 1901? Maybe someone restored it decades ago and put this rear sight and hand guard on. I'll have to look for a proper hand guard to match the the correct sight and maybe sell this one to someone who needs it. The sight blade was really short and looked filed straight and a cool guy mailed me a sight blade but with no hole for the pin. I'll probably use a punch to create a snug fit since I don't have the right drill bit yet.

krag (3).jpg (125.42 KiB) Viewed 1713 times

krag (2).jpg (122.53 KiB) Viewed 1713 times

krag (1).jpg (191.61 KiB) Viewed 1713 times

[geofois]

On a side note I was considering getting a sight ladder with peep hole and see if it fits onto this sight leaf to rig up a peep. I was going to see if my 1903 one fit. The dimensions seemed really close or maybe krag 1901 parts. Has anyone tried this? I was even thinking maybe just a nice clip over the ladder with a peep hole. It could shift left or right to adjust for windage. Even putting a thin piece of metal with a hole to put into ladder but not sure it would tighten down to hold it. Then I found grandpa's gunparts and figured building a sight might be nice.

[geofois]

Used Paint to convert word doc to picture file to post but maybe I could just have attached a word doc. Looks like 1899 for sure. Maybe I have the M1899 CARBINE FIRST MODEL, 1896 9000 MANUFACTURED or since mine does say model 1898 then probably M1898 CONVERTED CARBINE 3000 MANUFACTURED. Although the guy I got it from was convinced it was originally a carbine. He said the guy who had it was sent to Russia I believe in the expeditionary force in Eastern Russia not the one that went through England and was equipped with Russian weapons. I'm thinking as I researched I read that Krags were used to train with but probably not sent to Russia with the expeditionary force. He was in his 80s and I think he said he got it from the guy who served and it was his weapon. I should ask him and write it down just in case since when these guys pass we won't have these stories anymore.

krag list.jpg (280.33 KiB) Viewed 1710 times

[butlersrangers]

'geofois' - Your Krag receiver, in the #138,000 range, was built around October, 1898.

Your Krag is a bit out of the number range for most model 1898 carbines, but, some 'outliers' run as high as #140,195.

A lot of model 1898 carbines have been 'Faked' or just innocently put together from parts.
In my opinion, the only model 1898 carbines that are particularly desirable & valuable are the ones in their original "short-stock saddle-ring" configuration.

A clear, well focused, photo of your front-sight base and muzzle 'crown' would allow a better idea as to whether you have a real carbine barrel.
In all probability, someone (outside a U.S. Armory or Arsenal) has assembled your Krag from nice parts.

Your present rear-sight is the model 1896 rifle sight. The sight screw-heads don't look quite right.
(BTW - A loose model 1896 carbine-sight, if found, sells for around $600).

Your carbine stock, with its very nice (Joseph Sumner Adams) "JSA - 1901" cartouche, was originally on a model 1899 carbine.

In answer to your question: The model 1898 & 1902 Krag rear-sights use a different screw than the model 1896 and 1901 sights. The front and rear screw is identical on the 1898 & 1902 sights.

Sometimes incorrect screw combinations are found on Krags.

Attached photo shows the screws that are correct with 1902 and 1898 sight-bases.
(The 1902 sight shown is a variation that was made with a salvaged 1898 leaf and reshaped eye-piece).

[geofois]

I took out the screws and one looks really odd. Like someone cut the sides and smashed it to get the threads to come out wider. Just to make sure this is an 1896 rear rifle sight not a carbine right since it goes up to 18? Those probably aren't at the $600 range. Crossing fingers it's a legit barrel. It has a dove tail sight but I imagine a good gun smith can create that. I put paper just to snug the blade in and take it to the range. I think paper has acid and not good to leave in. The longer screw was the front of the base where there is more material so longer seems to be needed but for the 1898 base it looks like I just need the same short one right? I don't see it at Grandpa's Gun Parts

krag sight screws.jpg (172.15 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

krag front sight (2).jpg (214.3 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

krag front sight (1).jpg (122.94 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

[FredC]

With the close ups your stock and hand guard look like Italian walnut. Looked further up on the screw photos. WOWSERS! Bubba strikes again. Maybe that is a #6 screw flattened to resemble the fit of a #8? Hope it did not mess up the threads in the barrel. You have what looks like a legit carbine barrel.

[butlersrangers]

Whoa 'geofois' ..... some stuff posted on the internet causes much confusion!

The pages, that you posted, have the serial numbers grouped by 'Fiscal Year'. (Fiscal Year runs from the beginning of July to the end of June, in the following year).

In terms of manufacture, inspection and acceptance into service, the actual calendar date is more relevant.

Krag rifles were used in U.S. Training Camps and taken 'Overseas', by U.S. Engineer (Railway) Regiments, during WW1. Krag rifles were on some U.S. ships after WW1.
I suspect Krag carbines were mainly sold or in storage by 1917.

The U.S. Soldiers and Sailors ('Polar Bears') that fought and were photographed in North Russia, (Arkhangelsk), were armed with Mosin-Nagant rifles.
The U.S. Soldiers that landed and were photographed at Vladivostok (Pacific Seaport) were armed with 1903 Springfield rifles.