Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9878
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
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Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
No, not officially, the bases are different. (But the parts are mechanically compatible).
The 1898 'Dickson' rifle and carbine sights were calibrated for a faster ('hotter') Krag cartridge, that sent its 220-grain projectile at a velocity of 2,200 fps.
This ammunition was withdrawn from service, when some Krag bolts began developing cracks in the locking-lug area.
There was a return to the regular 2,000 fps .30 caliber Army cartridge. The model 1902 Krag sight has a base with a high 'elevation curvature' that is correct for the slower cartridge.
The 1902 base also has a simple 'flat' leaf-spring, that is retained in a dovetail, machined into the base.
The model 1898 sight bases have a lower elevation-curvature, because of the flatter trajectory of the 'hotter' cartridge. The bases also used a more complicated sight-spring.
The 1898 sight-bases became obsolete and useless to Springfield Armory. The bases & springs were scrapped and sold to bidders, like Bannerman and Stokes-Kirk.
(Surplus dealers re-used the 1898 bases & springs with surplus parts to make Krag rifles and carbines for the Civilian-Sporting market.
This likely created the odd sights we occasionally see with 1898 bases and 1902 leaves. Springfield Armory did not use this combination of parts).
Springfield did recycle the 'three-notch' 1898 sight-leaf.
The outside corners of the eye-piece were ground to add a radius and reduce the two-outside sight-notches. Slide-locking 'serrations' were machined on the left-side of the leaf.
The altered 1898 sight-leaves were put on a model 1902 base to make an official variant of the model 1902 sight.
p.s. There are rifle and carbine versions of Lt. Dickson's model 1898 sight and his model 1902 sight. Each of these four different bases required a different height of 'elevation-curvature'.
The attached photo shows a model 1898 rifle sight and two variations of the model 1902 rifle sight. It is hard to tell from the photo angle, but the two 1902 sights have the same base with a high curvature for elevation.
The 1898 'Dickson' rifle and carbine sights were calibrated for a faster ('hotter') Krag cartridge, that sent its 220-grain projectile at a velocity of 2,200 fps.
This ammunition was withdrawn from service, when some Krag bolts began developing cracks in the locking-lug area.
There was a return to the regular 2,000 fps .30 caliber Army cartridge. The model 1902 Krag sight has a base with a high 'elevation curvature' that is correct for the slower cartridge.
The 1902 base also has a simple 'flat' leaf-spring, that is retained in a dovetail, machined into the base.
The model 1898 sight bases have a lower elevation-curvature, because of the flatter trajectory of the 'hotter' cartridge. The bases also used a more complicated sight-spring.
The 1898 sight-bases became obsolete and useless to Springfield Armory. The bases & springs were scrapped and sold to bidders, like Bannerman and Stokes-Kirk.
(Surplus dealers re-used the 1898 bases & springs with surplus parts to make Krag rifles and carbines for the Civilian-Sporting market.
This likely created the odd sights we occasionally see with 1898 bases and 1902 leaves. Springfield Armory did not use this combination of parts).
Springfield did recycle the 'three-notch' 1898 sight-leaf.
The outside corners of the eye-piece were ground to add a radius and reduce the two-outside sight-notches. Slide-locking 'serrations' were machined on the left-side of the leaf.
The altered 1898 sight-leaves were put on a model 1902 base to make an official variant of the model 1902 sight.
p.s. There are rifle and carbine versions of Lt. Dickson's model 1898 sight and his model 1902 sight. Each of these four different bases required a different height of 'elevation-curvature'.
The attached photo shows a model 1898 rifle sight and two variations of the model 1902 rifle sight. It is hard to tell from the photo angle, but the two 1902 sights have the same base with a high curvature for elevation.
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- sights 1898 - converted 1898 eyepiece - 1902 with Sgt. Peep.jpg (177.94 KiB) Viewed 924 times
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9878
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
The easiest way to identify the (U.S. Krag) model 1898 sight-base and model 1902 sight-base is by the 'leaf' spring retention method.
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- Krag spring model 1898 sight leaf.jpg (3.35 KiB) Viewed 918 times
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- Krag spring Model-1902 sight leaf.jpg (51.24 KiB) Viewed 918 times
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Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Awesome information! I’m heading to the shop to check which bases I have — hoping to have one of each.
Thank you so much!
Here is one that is not mounted to a rifle — I believe it is the 1898 base. The other appears the same.
Thank you so much!
Here is one that is not mounted to a rifle — I believe it is the 1898 base. The other appears the same.
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Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
So I have two krags being restored with new criterion barrels, stocks, and bluing.
Rifle #1: Serial 242668 is equipped with an 1898 sight. I wonder if this rifle falls within the serial range for possible use in the Philippines — was the 1898 sight in use there?
Rifle #2: Serial 482609 is just a receiver — I have another 1898 sight for it as well, however, I was thinking of equipping it with the 1902 sight?
Which sight would you equip each rifle with?
Rifle #1: Serial 242668 is equipped with an 1898 sight. I wonder if this rifle falls within the serial range for possible use in the Philippines — was the 1898 sight in use there?
Rifle #2: Serial 482609 is just a receiver — I have another 1898 sight for it as well, however, I was thinking of equipping it with the 1902 sight?
Which sight would you equip each rifle with?
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9878
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Sean - The 'loose sight' picture that you posted is indeed a model 1898 rifle sight.
Your model 1898 Krag, #242668, was probably assembled in December 1899.
When first built, your rifle was likely fitted with a 'three-notch' model 1898 rear-sight.
The 1898 sight is believed to have been used on model 1898 rifles in the approximate serial number range of 218,000 to 253,000.
The higher velocity 2,200 fps Krag ammo was removed from service in March 1900. The model 1898 rear-sight became obsolete and most of these sights were removed from Krag rifles and carbines.
Obviously, some arms were missed or 'loose' model 1898 rear-sights got 're-installed', after Krags got into private hands.
Your 1898 Krag rifle was made too late to have been used in the Spanish American War.
Some model 1898 Krags are documented as having been issued to U.S. forces, who saw service during the Philippine Insurrection.
A bunch of documented Krag rifles made in December 1899, (and listed by serial number in Springfield Research Services - SRS data), may have remained in storage until 1904, when the rifles were issued to the Maryland National Guard.
Your Krag, #242668, is not documented in the SRS data.
(Only about 2 & 1/2 percent of the nearly 1/2 million U.S. Krags are listed in the SRS serial number data. The data is composed of the serial numbers found by researchers in official documents).
In regard to sight preferences: I have never used a model 1898 rear-sight for shooting. I find the three sighting notches needlessly 'goofy'.
(BTW - The outside 'notches' were there to compensate for strong cross-winds).
The leaf of the 1898 sight lacks 'serrations' to help lock the elevation slide in place. IMO - this sight is a couple of 'aiming mishaps' just waiting to happen!
I much prefer Lt. Dickson's "re-do", the model 1902 rear-sight. This is my favorite Krag sight for 50 and 100 yard shooting.
(I ignore the added "Sgt. Peep" feature, if present, and simply find it a nuisance).
I consider the model 1902 sight an improvement over the model 1898. Fortunately, these two sights use the same hand-guard.
A practical alternative for Sean would be to buy a model 1902 (or 1903) 'top' and put it on one of his 1898 bases. This is not an 'officially correct' sight, but looks 'OK'
and gives an inexpensive ($45) opportunity to experience the virtues of the 1902 sight.
With lighter bullets, this combination may even give elevation graduations that are 'more on the mark'.
Some Krag shooters prefer the model 1901 sight for target work, but this sight requires a different hand-guard and a peculiar front mounting screw.
Be advised, your new 'Criterion' barrels are drilled & tapped for modern 8-32 screws and not original .187" X 30 t.p.i. Krag sight-screws.
In the early 1900's to the 1920's, Krag rifles used in Match Shooting were equipped with either the model 1901 or 1902 sights.
Some sight parts originally made for the 'Rod-Bayonet' 1903 Springfield were 'interchangeable' with the 1902 Krag sight and officially used for repairs.
Your model 1898 Krag, #242668, was probably assembled in December 1899.
When first built, your rifle was likely fitted with a 'three-notch' model 1898 rear-sight.
The 1898 sight is believed to have been used on model 1898 rifles in the approximate serial number range of 218,000 to 253,000.
The higher velocity 2,200 fps Krag ammo was removed from service in March 1900. The model 1898 rear-sight became obsolete and most of these sights were removed from Krag rifles and carbines.
Obviously, some arms were missed or 'loose' model 1898 rear-sights got 're-installed', after Krags got into private hands.
Your 1898 Krag rifle was made too late to have been used in the Spanish American War.
Some model 1898 Krags are documented as having been issued to U.S. forces, who saw service during the Philippine Insurrection.
A bunch of documented Krag rifles made in December 1899, (and listed by serial number in Springfield Research Services - SRS data), may have remained in storage until 1904, when the rifles were issued to the Maryland National Guard.
Your Krag, #242668, is not documented in the SRS data.
(Only about 2 & 1/2 percent of the nearly 1/2 million U.S. Krags are listed in the SRS serial number data. The data is composed of the serial numbers found by researchers in official documents).
In regard to sight preferences: I have never used a model 1898 rear-sight for shooting. I find the three sighting notches needlessly 'goofy'.
(BTW - The outside 'notches' were there to compensate for strong cross-winds).
The leaf of the 1898 sight lacks 'serrations' to help lock the elevation slide in place. IMO - this sight is a couple of 'aiming mishaps' just waiting to happen!
I much prefer Lt. Dickson's "re-do", the model 1902 rear-sight. This is my favorite Krag sight for 50 and 100 yard shooting.
(I ignore the added "Sgt. Peep" feature, if present, and simply find it a nuisance).
I consider the model 1902 sight an improvement over the model 1898. Fortunately, these two sights use the same hand-guard.
A practical alternative for Sean would be to buy a model 1902 (or 1903) 'top' and put it on one of his 1898 bases. This is not an 'officially correct' sight, but looks 'OK'
and gives an inexpensive ($45) opportunity to experience the virtues of the 1902 sight.
With lighter bullets, this combination may even give elevation graduations that are 'more on the mark'.
Some Krag shooters prefer the model 1901 sight for target work, but this sight requires a different hand-guard and a peculiar front mounting screw.
Be advised, your new 'Criterion' barrels are drilled & tapped for modern 8-32 screws and not original .187" X 30 t.p.i. Krag sight-screws.
In the early 1900's to the 1920's, Krag rifles used in Match Shooting were equipped with either the model 1901 or 1902 sights.
Some sight parts originally made for the 'Rod-Bayonet' 1903 Springfield were 'interchangeable' with the 1902 Krag sight and officially used for repairs.
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Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Amazing research! I really appreciate the knowledge and have added it to each of the rifle history files I keep.
I am going to keep Krag #242668 with the 1898 sight and base, and Krag #482609 with a 1902 sight and base. I’ll probably sell the second 1898 sight and base.
Good to know information that the sights use a different screw with new criterion barrels. I am sure the CMP custom shop has the needed screws , but will check. I mainly wanted to settle on the sights now as I believe they will be blued with the other parts to match.
I looked around and found it difficult to find a 1902 sight base — luckily GB had a complete 1902 sight.
I am going to keep Krag #242668 with the 1898 sight and base, and Krag #482609 with a 1902 sight and base. I’ll probably sell the second 1898 sight and base.
Good to know information that the sights use a different screw with new criterion barrels. I am sure the CMP custom shop has the needed screws , but will check. I mainly wanted to settle on the sights now as I believe they will be blued with the other parts to match.
I looked around and found it difficult to find a 1902 sight base — luckily GB had a complete 1902 sight.
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Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
I talked to some folks at Criterion about special screws for the different Krag sights and they did not follow up. You can get gunsmith quality screws 8-32 at Brownells and trim them to the required length. A bushing of the right diameter might work on the front of sights with the windage adjustment. On another post about sights Br mentioned that by swapping parts one could come up with it seems like 400 unofficial combinations. There sure is a lot to know about them. So many have put aftermarket sights on their Krags there should be lot of the more standard sighs floating around.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9878
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Sean - That GunBroker sight, that you posted photos of, appears to be a 1903 'Rod Bayonet Springfield' leaf mounted on a model 1898 rifle-sight base.
The elevation curvature is not tall enough and the spring is wrong. It is not a model 1902 sight base. The sight is a mixmaster of parts that somebody put together.
It can be a useful sight, but it is not a correct Krag model 1902 sight.
Granpa's Gun Parts is a good source of correct Krag parts. There is a link in the KCA Classifieds. He is on vacation until early January, so the site is dormant at present.
The elevation curvature is not tall enough and the spring is wrong. It is not a model 1902 sight base. The sight is a mixmaster of parts that somebody put together.
It can be a useful sight, but it is not a correct Krag model 1902 sight.
Granpa's Gun Parts is a good source of correct Krag parts. There is a link in the KCA Classifieds. He is on vacation until early January, so the site is dormant at present.
Re: Does the 1898 and 1902 sight use the same base?
Just to add some confusion to this nice discussion, I do a lot of shooting with my Krags, especially one that I have used in local competitions and just plain like to shoot. It has the best bore and muzzle crown for accuracy purposes. I have tried all of the sights and my favorite rear sight is the Model 1901 sight with all of the peep holes and slide. I have found this to give me the best ability to adjust reliably the elevation and windage. It's just worked better for me. I have used this for shooting mainly 100-300 yards. Open sights on this specific Model 1898 Krag made in 1903 has given 1 1/2 MOA at my best, so far. That's not every time, of course, but the best grouping that I have been able to reproduce numerous times. Easy to get 2-3 MOA. This is with hand loads. But, with a 120 year old rifle without any alterations and open sights is amazing!
All of the different rear sights work and can work well. This is just my favorite one that I use most of the time on my Krag rifles. Good luck with your project!
All of the different rear sights work and can work well. This is just my favorite one that I use most of the time on my Krag rifles. Good luck with your project!