I shoot a lot of .22s in silouette matches and I think this would be a great rifle for the iron sights matches. I really like the looks of these rifles and of course know nothing about them. Is this particular rifle worth the money? I figure with your input I can use this rifle as a baseline for condition and value as I search for one. Thanks
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=270885455
I am thinking of purchasing one of these
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2292
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
I think it's kinda high for a re-blued gun.
Also, and this is my personal opinion, I'd prefer an "all Springfield" rifle, with the extractor-plate mechanism, as opposed to one of the Pope-barreled guns.
Both types are rare, but seem to fetch about the same. I paid $3000 for mine, about three years ago, when prices were somewhat higher. The serial number is listed in Mallory's book. No matter what, you will have to dig around a bit, and won't have a wide selection from which to choose - they don't turn up often.
Also, and this is my personal opinion, I'd prefer an "all Springfield" rifle, with the extractor-plate mechanism, as opposed to one of the Pope-barreled guns.
Both types are rare, but seem to fetch about the same. I paid $3000 for mine, about three years ago, when prices were somewhat higher. The serial number is listed in Mallory's book. No matter what, you will have to dig around a bit, and won't have a wide selection from which to choose - they don't turn up often.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
Thanks, Dick. I have a soft spot for the .22 trainers that looked just like their big brothers.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
I have been looking at the Stevens-Pope barrels and Krag conversions in detail for a few months. I know that all Stevens-Pope barrels have serial numbers on the bottom of the barrel. I have been told by someone who knows that those serials run from 1 (?) to about 1600, with numbers below about 1200 or 1300 being inspected by HP himself. They were made from 1901 to about 1905. The S-P barrel serial cover ALL the S-P barrels, from 38-72 or 38-55 through 32-40 to at least 15 made in 30-40 Krag and an unknown number being the S-P conversion barrel that turns the Krag into a gallery rifle.
There are 4 documented & photographed Steven-Pope Krags; 3 rifles & 1 carbine. All are in private collections. Only 1 serial number has been made public, #831, on a 100 % new & unfired rifle. The present owners of the other 3 are unknown. In 2000, another Stevens-Pope rifle appeared and was sold for $2000. That makes 5 known. In 2008, another S-P Krag was sold, this time for $2,500. But was it #6 or was it #5 being turned over for a profit? I have not seen photos of those 2 rifles & do not know anything about them. Now, in 2011, there was another a S-P Krag for sale, with an asking price of $2900. Was it #7? Or was it #5 or #6 being sold again? The hopeful seller sent me photos and the S-P serial number, in the 9xx range. Smith's barrel (described in the Pope Barrels book) is #831. Comparing the photos on the Gunbroker site with those sent to me, I can comfortably say that this is NOT the rifle offered for sale in 2011 and also it is not the rifle in Smith's book. Is it #5 Or #6 again? So there are between 7 and 9 survivors that I know something about. That makes it a pretty rare rifle. I'm running out of characters here, so I'll do a second part to this post.
There are 4 documented & photographed Steven-Pope Krags; 3 rifles & 1 carbine. All are in private collections. Only 1 serial number has been made public, #831, on a 100 % new & unfired rifle. The present owners of the other 3 are unknown. In 2000, another Stevens-Pope rifle appeared and was sold for $2000. That makes 5 known. In 2008, another S-P Krag was sold, this time for $2,500. But was it #6 or was it #5 being turned over for a profit? I have not seen photos of those 2 rifles & do not know anything about them. Now, in 2011, there was another a S-P Krag for sale, with an asking price of $2900. Was it #7? Or was it #5 or #6 being sold again? The hopeful seller sent me photos and the S-P serial number, in the 9xx range. Smith's barrel (described in the Pope Barrels book) is #831. Comparing the photos on the Gunbroker site with those sent to me, I can comfortably say that this is NOT the rifle offered for sale in 2011 and also it is not the rifle in Smith's book. Is it #5 Or #6 again? So there are between 7 and 9 survivors that I know something about. That makes it a pretty rare rifle. I'm running out of characters here, so I'll do a second part to this post.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
The Steven-Pope Krag needs a long explanation as to how it got to be and how many were made. I use NG for National Guard as an easy acronym, but really they were State Guard & Militia units, semi-autonomous until 1916 when all state guard & militia units were federalized. NG units had been issued Gallery Practice ammo for their Krags but the stuff was very inaccurate. Many NG units did not have access to military rifle ranges. Often, their performance was terrible.
In 1900, 22 rimfire "miniature" military rifle shooting was started in UK and was brought here. Some NG officers bought rifles & tried them. They worked out well & the NG troops began building indoor ranges. In 1901, Stevens hired Harry Pope. Stevens then (1901) began marketing the regular Stevens-Pope barrels for CF & RF single shot rifles.
Pope was also working on the Krag conversion. Once the design was perfected, Stevens marketed "Stevens-Pope" Krag conversion units as a commercial enterprise. Some were bought by civilian shooters & some by NG officers, again as individual purchases. Then NG units in PA, OH, NJ and WA bought reasonably large numbers. My guess is that total NG purchases amounted to 200 to 500 barrels. Those barrels were also numbered, just like the regular Stevens-Pope barrels. NG company armorers converted US Army-owned Krags into gallery rifles. The NG began indoor rifle practice and marksmanship was much improved. But the conversions were not authorized by the Army. Brig. Gen. William Crozier, Chief of Ordnance, ordered (in 1904) that the Krag gallery rifles be returned to their original condition. The NG argued that the gallery rifles produced better trained soldiers. Crozier promised the NG that Springfield would make Krag gallery rifles & ordered the production of 500. They were being made in FY 1906. By FY 1907, production was complete and 841 Model 1898 Krag Gallery Practice Rifles had been made.
In 1900, 22 rimfire "miniature" military rifle shooting was started in UK and was brought here. Some NG officers bought rifles & tried them. They worked out well & the NG troops began building indoor ranges. In 1901, Stevens hired Harry Pope. Stevens then (1901) began marketing the regular Stevens-Pope barrels for CF & RF single shot rifles.
Pope was also working on the Krag conversion. Once the design was perfected, Stevens marketed "Stevens-Pope" Krag conversion units as a commercial enterprise. Some were bought by civilian shooters & some by NG officers, again as individual purchases. Then NG units in PA, OH, NJ and WA bought reasonably large numbers. My guess is that total NG purchases amounted to 200 to 500 barrels. Those barrels were also numbered, just like the regular Stevens-Pope barrels. NG company armorers converted US Army-owned Krags into gallery rifles. The NG began indoor rifle practice and marksmanship was much improved. But the conversions were not authorized by the Army. Brig. Gen. William Crozier, Chief of Ordnance, ordered (in 1904) that the Krag gallery rifles be returned to their original condition. The NG argued that the gallery rifles produced better trained soldiers. Crozier promised the NG that Springfield would make Krag gallery rifles & ordered the production of 500. They were being made in FY 1906. By FY 1907, production was complete and 841 Model 1898 Krag Gallery Practice Rifles had been made.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
In 1905, Pope left Stevens and that was pretty much the end of the Stevens-Pope barrels. No one knows how many were made or sold or how many the various NG units bought. But it must have been more than just a few to convince the Army to make first 500 and then another 341 GPRs at Springfield Armory. In 1904, Winchester began marketing their Musket as a gallery rifle & sold them to NG units and that was the end of the S-P conversions in the NG.
So it's kinda-sorta a military rifle, but definitely has a place (at least to me) in Krag history.
Peters produced "Stevens-Pope Armory" cartridges. Winchester produced "Krag Armory" cartridges (or some such). All had bullets weighing about 40 grains, so today's 22 LR cartridges ought to function, once you find the proper brand. But if you shoot 22s for accuracy, you know about that.
Before you buy the rifle, you need some sort of absolute guarantee as to the condition of the bore, the twist, and bore diameter. You are buying a shooter.
Serial number of 4760XX puts this action toward the end of Krag production. Is this a Springfield Gallery Practice Rifle with a S-P barrel? You need to ask questions about the extractor. And is there a hole (for the trip pin) drilled in the left side of the receiver?
I am shooting one of the early Model 1898 GPRs, but it is chambered for 22 Extra Long and has a .226" bore diameter. It also has a terrible trigger pull. Accuracy is notably lacking unless you do extreme things with your ammunition. I resize 22 LR bullets to .2268 when still loaded in the case.
So it's kinda-sorta a military rifle, but definitely has a place (at least to me) in Krag history.
Peters produced "Stevens-Pope Armory" cartridges. Winchester produced "Krag Armory" cartridges (or some such). All had bullets weighing about 40 grains, so today's 22 LR cartridges ought to function, once you find the proper brand. But if you shoot 22s for accuracy, you know about that.
Before you buy the rifle, you need some sort of absolute guarantee as to the condition of the bore, the twist, and bore diameter. You are buying a shooter.
Serial number of 4760XX puts this action toward the end of Krag production. Is this a Springfield Gallery Practice Rifle with a S-P barrel? You need to ask questions about the extractor. And is there a hole (for the trip pin) drilled in the left side of the receiver?
I am shooting one of the early Model 1898 GPRs, but it is chambered for 22 Extra Long and has a .226" bore diameter. It also has a terrible trigger pull. Accuracy is notably lacking unless you do extreme things with your ammunition. I resize 22 LR bullets to .2268 when still loaded in the case.
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2292
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
Thank you so much for sharing your research. Mine is 476551, and I have not yet shot it, but do plan to. One of the tiny pins/springs on the plate is broken, so it operates sluggishly, but the bore is in nice shape. Am not expecting any great accuracy, though.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
I am not sure that Springfield used the GPR actions in numerical order when the 22 rifles were assembled. I think they made a bunch of actions (with different heat treating than the regular Krag action) and then assembled the rest of the rifles in batches.
After making a few, Springfield changed the internal barrel & chamber specs. The later ones shoot much better. Try slugging your barrel.
The one I am shooting has a higher SN but definitely has one of the early production barrels. Only a couple of tiny pits near the chamber. If I can get the bullets sized properly, it should shoot better.
After making a few, Springfield changed the internal barrel & chamber specs. The later ones shoot much better. Try slugging your barrel.
The one I am shooting has a higher SN but definitely has one of the early production barrels. Only a couple of tiny pits near the chamber. If I can get the bullets sized properly, it should shoot better.
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
Thanks for the great information fellas. Does the total known include these?
http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3140&aid=33612&lid=9107841
http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3693&aid=40026&lid=11733195
http://www.proxybid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3693&aid=30486&lid=8487121
http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3140&aid=33612&lid=9107841
http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3693&aid=40026&lid=11733195
http://www.proxybid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3693&aid=30486&lid=8487121
Re: I am thinking of purchasing one of these
The first 2 are Springfield-made Gallery Practice Rifles. 841 (+/-) were made, in several batches, delivered 1907 & 1908. I don't say that there are a lot of them, but if you look around, the number available someplace is 20 or 30, more or less.
The 3rd one is another Stevens-Pope barrel. This is either #6 reappearing or is #10. This one (and maybe the one that started this thread) are the only examples I have heard of where a Stevens-Pope barrel was fitted to a Springfield-made Gallery Practice action. That would have been an apparently logical move if the rifle had one of the oversize barrels from the first batch of Springfield GPRs, or if the barrel had been neglected & corroded inside.
One major problem: The Stevens-Pope barrels had the chamber offset at the 12:00 position, so that the regular Krag extractor could be used. If a regular Krag front sight was used. the rear sight had to be set to about 300 or 400 yards to get the rifle on paper at 50 feet or 25 yards. Stevens barrels were drilled & tapped for the regular Krag sight, the one from the rifle being converted. But the front sight fit into a 3/8" dovetail and could be changed in height so that the rear sight did not have to be elevated.
But the Springfield modification had the chamber at the 6:00 position and made use of a secondary extractor. If the Stevens-Pope barrel were to be fit to a Springfield GPR, a lot of gunsmith work would be required.
Much easier just to get another regular Krag and put the S-P barrel on it. Just screw the S-P barrel to the reference mark, add a rear sight and shoot it.
The 3rd one is another Stevens-Pope barrel. This is either #6 reappearing or is #10. This one (and maybe the one that started this thread) are the only examples I have heard of where a Stevens-Pope barrel was fitted to a Springfield-made Gallery Practice action. That would have been an apparently logical move if the rifle had one of the oversize barrels from the first batch of Springfield GPRs, or if the barrel had been neglected & corroded inside.
One major problem: The Stevens-Pope barrels had the chamber offset at the 12:00 position, so that the regular Krag extractor could be used. If a regular Krag front sight was used. the rear sight had to be set to about 300 or 400 yards to get the rifle on paper at 50 feet or 25 yards. Stevens barrels were drilled & tapped for the regular Krag sight, the one from the rifle being converted. But the front sight fit into a 3/8" dovetail and could be changed in height so that the rear sight did not have to be elevated.
But the Springfield modification had the chamber at the 6:00 position and made use of a secondary extractor. If the Stevens-Pope barrel were to be fit to a Springfield GPR, a lot of gunsmith work would be required.
Much easier just to get another regular Krag and put the S-P barrel on it. Just screw the S-P barrel to the reference mark, add a rear sight and shoot it.