1899 carbine ?

[damong]

Hello there -
I've scoured the internet and can't find much info about this rifle given to me. My grandfather got this rifle long ago -

According to the receiver, it is an 1899 Krag - with a serial number (228787) that corresponds with being a carbine.

The muzzle has been turned for a bayonet. It appears to have an 1898 carbine sight. It has no bayonet lug. I cannot find a 'C' stamp on the front sight blade. It has nothing in the cleaning kit pocket. It appears to be missing the top handguard (was it supposed to have one?). The barrel is exactly 22" long. The front barrel band is held in place with a pin, not a spring clip.

The closest thing I've found to this is a philippine constabulary krag - but I don't think this is one of those! is it perhaps one of the 'school rifles'?

Can anyone help me ID this thing? Attached are photos! - 56k warning - they are large photos.
Thanks -
http://12.102.92.214/krag/buttplate.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/muzzle.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/rearbolt.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/serial.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/sidesight.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/topsight.jpg

[Rick_the_Librarian]

You MAY have a so-called Philippine Constabulary Carbine. They were 1899 carbines that were fitted with "short" rifle-type stocks and had the muzzle turned to use the Krag bayonet. They were designed for the slighter-statured Filipino members of the P.C. in the 1900s. The rifle has a 1898, which is relatively rare. Does the rear sight have a "C" on it?

As I recall, the standard Krag front sight was used and the front sight blade doesn't look "kosher". I couldn't tell from the pictures but does it have a carbine stock or a "short" rifle stock like the originals did?

Maybe one of the "heavyweights" like Ned will respond to this.

I'm taking the liberty of providing a link to this post on the Krag forum on www.jouster.com and see if we get some feedback there.

[damong]

Thanks for the reply!
I've attached two more pictures, one of the full rifle, another of the front barrel band.
The more I read about these rifles, the more I think it is a school gun, but it'd be great to get a definate (or near definate) answer.

So here are the pics - thanks again!

http://12.102.92.214/krag/band.jpg
http://12.102.92.214/krag/rifle.jpg

[Dick Hosmer]

I'd really like to see a shot of the upper band, from the bottom, AND the filler in the stock.

The barrel turning looks OK, the front sight blade has obviously been fooled with. I was briefly confused by his comment about band retention - I THINK he means the front of the (lower) band has a pin, which would be right, but that brings us back to the upper band, which apparently has been mutilated.

The 98C sight, which that IS, is scarce, but not the sight normally seen on those guns - obviously the HG IS missing.

The serial number is dead on (and is quite close to my own school gun).

One very GOOD sign is that it is so UNIFORMLY cruddy. It does not appear that the gun has been touched for a VERY long time, which pretty much throws "fake" out the window; that long ago no one knew or cared.

Bubba, unfortunately, is not yet off the hook. I would have to say, in the absence of more pics - - - inconclusive, but I LEAN towards it being "right", albeit mistreated. In short, the barrelled action seems above reproach - the stock and sights are another matter.

[Dick Hosmer]

After having seen the second two pictures, I would have to say, very probably it WAS a school gun, which has (sadly) been FURTHER modified, by someone outside of SA. It appears "restorable" but that opens up the ethics can - best to just appreciate it as a family memory, take it to the range or the woods, and have fun!

[damong]

Thanks for the comments Mr. Hosmer! Like I said, any info is appreciated. If I could pick your brain just a bit more - could you tell me how the rifle has been 'bubba-ized'? I figured that front sight blade looked 'odd', the missing handguard, etc. That front end looks kinda awful, like someone shortened the stock with a belt sander. Could you give me a short rundown on what all has been done? Are there any resources as to finding out how this rifle found its way to my family? Something like a serial number search - something that might show where the rifle finally fell into 'civvy' hands.

This rifle is one of 3 firearms left to me - the others aren't krags, They are a M1917 revolver (with a 4 digit serial) and my grandads old winchester 22 pump rifle.

Thanks again for the info... I really appreciate it!

[Dick Hosmer]

Your stock has been cut off. It should run to within a couple of inches of the muzzle, and have a rifle upper band, with bayonet lug, secured by a transverse screw. That is how the bayonet is attached. The front sight blade appears to have been replaced with a sporting type, which may at one time have had a gild bead.

There is a picture (=1000 words) of a "school gun" in the photo section of this website. While the name "Philippine Constabulary Rifle" has always had something of a romantic flair to it, the likelihood of a real one occurring stateside is most unlikely. They were altered at the Manila Ordnance Depot around 1907, and were most likely destroyed by the Japanese during WW2. However, a VERY similar gun was made for issue to U.S. colleges, etc. for what we would today call ROTC use.

I have run your number through the only source I know of for such things. Not recorded in their database (join the crowd, only about 5% of the numbers are recorded) - I cannot think of any other place to look, for a historical thread.