Hi,
I recently purchased an 1896 Krag. Mr. Butts very kindly clarified one point a couple of days ago that I should have been able to figure out myself.
But I am new, so I will take a chance with another question, actually two.
The rear sight on the gun seem to be a collection of parts from various models. The base is exactly like the base for an 1896 shown in your pictures. The elevation slide, however, looks just like that on the 1892 sights and the range numbers go up to 19 on the left side whereas they go to 18 in your picture. Is this just a combination of parts put together by someone over time, or was there an "official" 1896 rear sight made up like this at some point in the evolution of the sight?
My other question has to do with the range. The lowest is "3" -- I assume 300 yards. I fired the gun at the range for the first time today. The first five not only missed the black, they missed everything! They went well over the top of the target at 100 yds. I am hardly an expert, but the black is not normally a significant challenge. I tried another five rounds, but lowered the front sight well below the black (please humor me for my lack of the correct language). All five were in the target but not well grouped since there was so much "white" between the front sight and the black of the target when I aimed.
I know that later Krag sights went down to 100 yds. Can my sight be adjusted lower, or do I just have to learn to compensate?
As always, I certainly appreciate any assistance.
Thanks, Neil
1896 Sights
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Richard_Sherman
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:17 am
Re: 1896 Sights
Neil:
300 yds is the tactical range for the Krags 1890s job, hitting a target 18" wide by 5' tall - a man. Remember the only round that was issed to troops in contact used a 220gr round nose bullet with 2000 fps muzzle velosity. Those little pointy ended 180gr bullets that Winchester sells today will be high - especially out of a 30" barrel. For a 300 yd sight with 220gr bullets against a man: at 100 yds aim at his belly and get a chest hit, at 200 yds aim at his belly and get a chest hit, at 300 yds aim at his chest and get a chest hit, at 400 yds aim at his head and get a chest hit. Mission accomplished!
All the parts and pieces to reload the 1890s cartridge are readily available. They are comfortable sub 2" groups from a good bore - if the old eyes and trigger finger do their job.
Richard Sherman
300 yds is the tactical range for the Krags 1890s job, hitting a target 18" wide by 5' tall - a man. Remember the only round that was issed to troops in contact used a 220gr round nose bullet with 2000 fps muzzle velosity. Those little pointy ended 180gr bullets that Winchester sells today will be high - especially out of a 30" barrel. For a 300 yd sight with 220gr bullets against a man: at 100 yds aim at his belly and get a chest hit, at 200 yds aim at his belly and get a chest hit, at 300 yds aim at his chest and get a chest hit, at 400 yds aim at his head and get a chest hit. Mission accomplished!
All the parts and pieces to reload the 1890s cartridge are readily available. They are comfortable sub 2" groups from a good bore - if the old eyes and trigger finger do their job.
Richard Sherman
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Neil
Re: 1896 Sights
Thanks Richard,
I appreciate your response -- now I know why the low end of the sights are set at 300 yards. Your explanation makes great sense.
As for a two inch cluster, these eyes are really old :-/! And aside from having to adjust to shooting high, there also seems to be no adjustment for windage.
But I'll adjust! Thanks for the response, Neil
I appreciate your response -- now I know why the low end of the sights are set at 300 yards. Your explanation makes great sense.
As for a two inch cluster, these eyes are really old :-/! And aside from having to adjust to shooting high, there also seems to be no adjustment for windage.
But I'll adjust! Thanks for the response, Neil
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Richard_Sherman
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:17 am
Re: 1896 Sights
Neil:
Of the four Krag rear sights that were fielded (models 1892, 1896, 1901 and 1902) only the 1901 and 1902 had windage adjustments. The 1902 also had a peep sight.
If you really enjoy shooting your Krag (I have five that are all shooters) I recommend that you look into reloading - those 220gr bullets will put history into your hands. Reloading is not complicated. It is the careful assembly of pre-made precision parts. To get started, find someone who reloads to show you how and share his loading equipment. A 30-40 Krag die set, load book, 100 cases (should give you 500+ shots), bullets, powder and primers should cost you under $200. Cheap shooting and more fun!
Richard Sherman
Of the four Krag rear sights that were fielded (models 1892, 1896, 1901 and 1902) only the 1901 and 1902 had windage adjustments. The 1902 also had a peep sight.
If you really enjoy shooting your Krag (I have five that are all shooters) I recommend that you look into reloading - those 220gr bullets will put history into your hands. Reloading is not complicated. It is the careful assembly of pre-made precision parts. To get started, find someone who reloads to show you how and share his loading equipment. A 30-40 Krag die set, load book, 100 cases (should give you 500+ shots), bullets, powder and primers should cost you under $200. Cheap shooting and more fun!
Richard Sherman
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Neil
Re: 1896 Sights
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the reply.
Here is what I have done so far based on a lot of help from several people. I thought of replacing the rear sight, but the cost plus the nuisance of a new handguard ended that idea. So I have ordered a tall front blade sight and will file it down to the correct height.
As for windage, I might resort to bending the new front blade to get on target. Seems crude, but I haven't heard of a better idea.
And I have already started reloading. It was nearly a $1.00 every time I pulled the trigger -- that couldn't last and still be fun. I just started this week. The gun shop sold me IMR4895 and 150 gr Spitzers. I have no idea if that is a decent combination. They could have sold me about anything! But the reloads do work. As for accuracy, without the sight adjustments, it is hard to say.
Why use the 220 gr? No doubt a naive question, but I have no idea what difference the various bullets make or, for that matter, the same with the powders. I have been told that the Krag action is not all that strong so I assume it is best to be safe -- I went several grams light on the powder.
Whatever, this is all a lot of fun. Thanks again for your response.
Neil
Thanks for the reply.
Here is what I have done so far based on a lot of help from several people. I thought of replacing the rear sight, but the cost plus the nuisance of a new handguard ended that idea. So I have ordered a tall front blade sight and will file it down to the correct height.
As for windage, I might resort to bending the new front blade to get on target. Seems crude, but I haven't heard of a better idea.
And I have already started reloading. It was nearly a $1.00 every time I pulled the trigger -- that couldn't last and still be fun. I just started this week. The gun shop sold me IMR4895 and 150 gr Spitzers. I have no idea if that is a decent combination. They could have sold me about anything! But the reloads do work. As for accuracy, without the sight adjustments, it is hard to say.
Why use the 220 gr? No doubt a naive question, but I have no idea what difference the various bullets make or, for that matter, the same with the powders. I have been told that the Krag action is not all that strong so I assume it is best to be safe -- I went several grams light on the powder.
Whatever, this is all a lot of fun. Thanks again for your response.
Neil
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Richard_Sherman
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:17 am
Re: 1896 Sights
Neil:
Don't let the fun and newness of a new gun capture your brain. Your Krag has been waiting around for about 105 or 106 years for you to shoot it - take your time.
Go to www.midwayusa.com. Look at all the stuff they have and order at least a "30/40 Krag Loadbook" (product number 195-829). It will give you a wide range of well tested and safe loading options.
Decide what you want to do with your Krag. Hunt? Shoot bullseyes? Shoot tight groups Those are similiar, but not coincident, uses of you Krag. For instance, I am drawn to the Krag for both family and military history reasons. My Grandfather fought in the Philippine Insurrection and Boxer Rebellion with a Krag and his brother built them at the Springfield Armory. I shoot 220gr RN for the history and aim for group size for the challenge. Load and shoot your Krag in a way that is safe and enjoyable for you.
Whoever says the Krag action is "weak" is ill informed. The action is what it is. It is not safe to overload it anymore than any other action. Stay within it's design limits and your Krag will outlive us both.
I would suggest that you think about modifying the sights. The first rule of any rebuilding/modifying a gun project is "do no harm". Especially if it can't be reversed (putting those little iron filings back on the top of a sight is real tricky). A heavier bullet and/or "light' powder load will also bring "high" bullets down into the bull. Neigther requires modifying any hardware.
Enjoy your Krag.
Keep up the fire.
Richard Sherman
Don't let the fun and newness of a new gun capture your brain. Your Krag has been waiting around for about 105 or 106 years for you to shoot it - take your time.
Go to www.midwayusa.com. Look at all the stuff they have and order at least a "30/40 Krag Loadbook" (product number 195-829). It will give you a wide range of well tested and safe loading options.
Decide what you want to do with your Krag. Hunt? Shoot bullseyes? Shoot tight groups Those are similiar, but not coincident, uses of you Krag. For instance, I am drawn to the Krag for both family and military history reasons. My Grandfather fought in the Philippine Insurrection and Boxer Rebellion with a Krag and his brother built them at the Springfield Armory. I shoot 220gr RN for the history and aim for group size for the challenge. Load and shoot your Krag in a way that is safe and enjoyable for you.
Whoever says the Krag action is "weak" is ill informed. The action is what it is. It is not safe to overload it anymore than any other action. Stay within it's design limits and your Krag will outlive us both.
I would suggest that you think about modifying the sights. The first rule of any rebuilding/modifying a gun project is "do no harm". Especially if it can't be reversed (putting those little iron filings back on the top of a sight is real tricky). A heavier bullet and/or "light' powder load will also bring "high" bullets down into the bull. Neigther requires modifying any hardware.
Enjoy your Krag.
Keep up the fire.
Richard Sherman
Re: 1896 Sights
Hi Neil,
I use 40 gr of IMR 4350 and 220 gr Hornday round nose in my full length military Krags. This load is a close match to original veloicity and works well with the Military sights. A couple of my guns with M'96 rear sights prefer only 33gr for some reason. Both loads seem to groupv well in the old guns. I shot a whitetail buck with a M'96 and the second load this past deer sesaon. In my sporter I shoot 44gr of H-414 and 150gr Nosler spitizers. This load came from Ken Walters "Pet Loads" and has worked very well for me over the years. Always remember try to stay away from max loads and work up to new loads gradually.
Enjoy,
Ned
I use 40 gr of IMR 4350 and 220 gr Hornday round nose in my full length military Krags. This load is a close match to original veloicity and works well with the Military sights. A couple of my guns with M'96 rear sights prefer only 33gr for some reason. Both loads seem to groupv well in the old guns. I shot a whitetail buck with a M'96 and the second load this past deer sesaon. In my sporter I shoot 44gr of H-414 and 150gr Nosler spitizers. This load came from Ken Walters "Pet Loads" and has worked very well for me over the years. Always remember try to stay away from max loads and work up to new loads gradually.
Enjoy,
Ned
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Neil
Re: 1896 Sights
Richard and Ned,
My thanks to you both.
I am going at the reloading cautiously. I have been using IMR 4895 (36.1) with Sierra 150 gr. The grouping is ok if I am at 50 yards so I expect the bore is decent. The problem is that even at 50 yds, the group is off the target -- I put butcher paper behind the target just to see where I am hitting!
I will certainly take your advice and experiment. I like the idea of using a load close to original and will work my way up to it. Maybe that will bring the grouping somewhere near the black.
Putting a higher blade in the front sight will be my last resort. The repo blade (from S&S) cost very little. There is a pin in the sight (is that original?) that I can knock out and change blades. I will save the old one and shoot with the new one.
That way I figure that I will not harm the gun (to the extent that it is original) and can still enjoy shooting it with a reasonable prospect of being on target.
Again, thank you both. This is a new hobby for me. I grew up with my father's Krag in my room -- as an adult I asked him about it and he told me that it was sold when times were tough. This spring, after many years, I finally decided to try the sport, and I love it. Now I have a shotgun for clays and three rifles (one is an inexpensive Schmidt Rubin K31 that is a remarkable shooter!). But the Krag is the pretty one and my emotional favorite. Now just to get it on target. Great fun.
Thanks, Neil
My thanks to you both.
I am going at the reloading cautiously. I have been using IMR 4895 (36.1) with Sierra 150 gr. The grouping is ok if I am at 50 yards so I expect the bore is decent. The problem is that even at 50 yds, the group is off the target -- I put butcher paper behind the target just to see where I am hitting!
I will certainly take your advice and experiment. I like the idea of using a load close to original and will work my way up to it. Maybe that will bring the grouping somewhere near the black.
Putting a higher blade in the front sight will be my last resort. The repo blade (from S&S) cost very little. There is a pin in the sight (is that original?) that I can knock out and change blades. I will save the old one and shoot with the new one.
That way I figure that I will not harm the gun (to the extent that it is original) and can still enjoy shooting it with a reasonable prospect of being on target.
Again, thank you both. This is a new hobby for me. I grew up with my father's Krag in my room -- as an adult I asked him about it and he told me that it was sold when times were tough. This spring, after many years, I finally decided to try the sport, and I love it. Now I have a shotgun for clays and three rifles (one is an inexpensive Schmidt Rubin K31 that is a remarkable shooter!). But the Krag is the pretty one and my emotional favorite. Now just to get it on target. Great fun.
Thanks, Neil