I have a M98 carbine (at least i think its a carbine barrel is 22.25 inches long and the end doesnt appear to have been cut off S#219XXX) that i aquired from my grandfather a few years back that has been slightly (very slightly) sporterized, and i am looking to restore it to mil spec condition for use in target matches. there are several issues that id like to get some feed back on, seeing that theyre obvious modifications. PLEASE keep in mind that im a poor college student an i am looking for the most cost effective means, it doesnt have to be pretty, just functional, and within the rules of the game...
Most noticably is the stock, an aftermarket stock with raised cheekrest etc is currently on it, and i need to put an original, or very good copy/reproduction stock back on it, i have been looking at boyds (i think) through numrich which brings me to something that id like to know, when they say "semi-inletted" how semi are we talking, im no gunsmith and i dont want to jump in way over my head... but back on topic, how good of copies are the modern stocks? and if theyre crummy, what price range and where do you find original stocks? ALSO what kind of other hardware (like barrel bands etc) do i need and where do i find those? AND (lol) i am under the impression that buttplates are nearly impossible to find, but have been told that the 03A3 buttplates are almost the same thing, how close is almost, what kind of modifications are we talking, and is it close enough to work and not get nailed at every torny you shoot at?
secondly, the sights. i have been told MANY times that its not uncommon to find the wrong rear sights on the wrong gun, mine being no exception, mine has M96 rear sights, how does that effect the foregrip and the front sight?? while on the subject of front sights, does anyone have a close-up picture of what theyre supposed to look like? Mine currently has a "sweat on" type front sight band with a dove tail type blade and from all the pictures ive seen thats not right.... i dont think (just guessing here) that its right because it would seem to me that it would get stuck in a scabbord... and if these are wrong where do i find, and how are the originals attached?
NEXT is the safety, a sore subject.. (at least where it hit me in the nose) Mine broke off, and i NEED a new one, Numrich says they dont have any, does anyone know where i can get a new or NOS one?
Thats pretty much it for now, pictures are avaiable if anybody needs clarification on anything. keep im mind that im in florida, and aparently KRAGS ar big up north but not down here, im a regular to the gun shows and have probably only seen 3 others here.... Thanks in advance to all....
M98 Carbine help needed
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Hal_Beatty
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
Pied,
Welcome to the forum.
Your Krag is most likely a cut down rifle. The SRS listings show no carbines in the 219??? serial no. range, the '99 carbine had been approved for manufacture at 216022, the barrel on yours is a little too long (mine measure 22.1") and the front sight is probably an '03 unit. So IMHO, your best bet would be to clean it up, find a new safety and enjoy it for what it is, just a great old gun.
You could replace the stock with a Boyd's, which would make it look more like a '99 carbine, but I can't attest to the quality or ease of installation of one.
As far as the sights go, yes, the rear sight will determine which type of handguard to use. S&S is supposed to have reproduction handguards available at some time in the future. You could also try them for the safety and front band (if you put a carbine type stock on it). www.ssfirearms.com
And the type of rear sight installed will affect the height of the front sight, as I recall S&S also has reproduction front sight blades available. Original front sights were brazed into a dovetail cut into the top of the barrel and it's be a lot of work to try and duplicate that. Better off to leave the '03 sight on it.
Another source for Krag parts is Joe DeChristopher, I don't have his e-mail address handy, but he advertises in Shotgun News.
Welcome to the forum.
Your Krag is most likely a cut down rifle. The SRS listings show no carbines in the 219??? serial no. range, the '99 carbine had been approved for manufacture at 216022, the barrel on yours is a little too long (mine measure 22.1") and the front sight is probably an '03 unit. So IMHO, your best bet would be to clean it up, find a new safety and enjoy it for what it is, just a great old gun.
You could replace the stock with a Boyd's, which would make it look more like a '99 carbine, but I can't attest to the quality or ease of installation of one.
As far as the sights go, yes, the rear sight will determine which type of handguard to use. S&S is supposed to have reproduction handguards available at some time in the future. You could also try them for the safety and front band (if you put a carbine type stock on it). www.ssfirearms.com
And the type of rear sight installed will affect the height of the front sight, as I recall S&S also has reproduction front sight blades available. Original front sights were brazed into a dovetail cut into the top of the barrel and it's be a lot of work to try and duplicate that. Better off to leave the '03 sight on it.
Another source for Krag parts is Joe DeChristopher, I don't have his e-mail address handy, but he advertises in Shotgun News.
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PiedTyper
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
Im still confused, i honestly do not think that this rifle has been cut down.... mainly due to the quality of the end, but also the fact that the end diameter of a cut off barrel would be larger than is on this rifle (given rate of taper), and as for the length, considering i measured it with a steel ruler balancing the gun on my knee to get enough light to read the ruler, allow some room for error (especially since the ruler has i .25" offset between the edge of the ruler and the start of the numbers....
as for the sights, i have had 3 03A3s one had peep sights so that ones eliminated BUT the other two had open sights, and as far as 03 sights, they have windage adjustments, the rear sight it EXACTLY as pictured in as many sources that ive seen via the internet and in print for a 96 sight. as for the front sight, now that i look at it it does look very similar to that of an 03, you could very well be right, but as a correction, not all front sights on carbines were braised into a dovetail, MANY documented carbines noted as being "fine" condition have sweat on style bands......
finally addressing the serial numbers, serial numbers hold little water with me as to an items actual identity. heck i drive a VW BUG and according to every number on the books, mine is a 71 even though mine is actually a 70 go figure...BUT if the serial number doesnt match up with a carbine, what DOES it match up with? from what ive seen of any of the serial number lists, it quite possiably could match up with nothing then where would we be??=)
im not trying to be difficult here, but like i said, im not trying to make a show piece, and nobody said that what i say and looks like a carbine actually had to start out life as a carbine=) im looking to make a functional, convencing (to everyone cept for you guys) model 1898 carbine.... i love this gun, its my favorite (thus the reason the 03 met the gun shop) and theres nothing like the attention it gets at the range... even though its not exactly the advice i was looking for thanks for the input hal and i hope to hear some more...
as for the sights, i have had 3 03A3s one had peep sights so that ones eliminated BUT the other two had open sights, and as far as 03 sights, they have windage adjustments, the rear sight it EXACTLY as pictured in as many sources that ive seen via the internet and in print for a 96 sight. as for the front sight, now that i look at it it does look very similar to that of an 03, you could very well be right, but as a correction, not all front sights on carbines were braised into a dovetail, MANY documented carbines noted as being "fine" condition have sweat on style bands......
finally addressing the serial numbers, serial numbers hold little water with me as to an items actual identity. heck i drive a VW BUG and according to every number on the books, mine is a 71 even though mine is actually a 70 go figure...BUT if the serial number doesnt match up with a carbine, what DOES it match up with? from what ive seen of any of the serial number lists, it quite possiably could match up with nothing then where would we be??=)
im not trying to be difficult here, but like i said, im not trying to make a show piece, and nobody said that what i say and looks like a carbine actually had to start out life as a carbine=) im looking to make a functional, convencing (to everyone cept for you guys) model 1898 carbine.... i love this gun, its my favorite (thus the reason the 03 met the gun shop) and theres nothing like the attention it gets at the range... even though its not exactly the advice i was looking for thanks for the input hal and i hope to hear some more...
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
OK You Got Me into this!!
You say that many documented carbines in fine condition have band type sights?? Absolutely no Krag carbines were ISSUED with band type sights. Many, many people out there are sadly missinformed by adds that they see by other uninformed people or just plain crooked idiots trying to put one over on you for a buck. I can't count the number of "original carbines" that I have seen sold on auction sights recently that are totally bogus. As for serial numbers, Krag carbines were only assenbled at certin times and fall into a serial number range for that time. No distinction was made within that range between rifles and carbines but all carbines were made with in that range with minor devation at begining and end. So if you are not close to that range then you have a cut down rifle no matter what quality the crown on the barrel has. (Good gunsmiths can crown a barrel!!) Do a little more research before you question someone with Hal's experience and knowledge.
We all make mistakes but you will not see Krags missrepresented here by a KCA charter member!!
With that said I have a Boyds stock and it took me between 2 & 3 hours with basic tools (no gunsmith's rasps etc) to fit it. I also bought directly from Boyds for substaintly less than from Gun Parts.
Try Joe DeCristopher at joede@tradernet.net for some of your parts.
Ned
You say that many documented carbines in fine condition have band type sights?? Absolutely no Krag carbines were ISSUED with band type sights. Many, many people out there are sadly missinformed by adds that they see by other uninformed people or just plain crooked idiots trying to put one over on you for a buck. I can't count the number of "original carbines" that I have seen sold on auction sights recently that are totally bogus. As for serial numbers, Krag carbines were only assenbled at certin times and fall into a serial number range for that time. No distinction was made within that range between rifles and carbines but all carbines were made with in that range with minor devation at begining and end. So if you are not close to that range then you have a cut down rifle no matter what quality the crown on the barrel has. (Good gunsmiths can crown a barrel!!) Do a little more research before you question someone with Hal's experience and knowledge.
We all make mistakes but you will not see Krags missrepresented here by a KCA charter member!!
With that said I have a Boyds stock and it took me between 2 & 3 hours with basic tools (no gunsmith's rasps etc) to fit it. I also bought directly from Boyds for substaintly less than from Gun Parts.
Try Joe DeCristopher at joede@tradernet.net for some of your parts.
Ned
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PiedTyper
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
ok let me start by apologising to hal, i understand that the people within this group are the foremost authorities of KRAGdom. like i said im not trying to be difficult. but i seemed to have rubbed this group the wrong way...so again, i extend my honest apology to anyone that may have been offended by my blind ignorance (and most definately spelling)
the original idea of this thread was not to establish if this rifle was authentic carbine or not, it was to get the info needed to convert the rifle i own into one that can be used for the purpose that i need it for....I have no idea what parts i need to attach a authentic or reproduction stock, to my rifle...and what obvious things stick out like a sore thumb as being aftermarket...
As for the misrepresentation of the front sight issue, if enough documented carbines(reguardless of condition) have sweat on bands, then its common enough of a varience that nobody is going to care...like i said, im not trying to restore this gun to museum quality, nor will i ever misrepresent this guns now apearent and confused history...
as for the serial number issue, i was questioning hals responce because it didnt make sense. The gun is stamped as "Model 1898 Springfield Armory 219XXX" and hal said that the 99's were approved at 216022. so where im confused is that this is definatly stamped 1898 no question of that, does that mean that it was a 98 converted to a 99? also, before i bring up the other thing, do the serial nimbers run in forward or reverse order? because if the serial number is correct than this gun is a 99? but since the issue has NO bearing on what im trying to find out here, it can be dropped... but its something intresting, and despite what you may think, i like to learn new things and this has struck me as intresting....
finally, does anyone know about the buttplate issue? since ive never seen an authentic KRAG buttplate up close and in person, i still have no idea as to how closely they are to an 03s
so, im sorry if i implied that hal didnt know what he was talking about, trust me, im not one to call names if im not an authority of the subject....so, dont give up on me, im just looking for help...
the original idea of this thread was not to establish if this rifle was authentic carbine or not, it was to get the info needed to convert the rifle i own into one that can be used for the purpose that i need it for....I have no idea what parts i need to attach a authentic or reproduction stock, to my rifle...and what obvious things stick out like a sore thumb as being aftermarket...
As for the misrepresentation of the front sight issue, if enough documented carbines(reguardless of condition) have sweat on bands, then its common enough of a varience that nobody is going to care...like i said, im not trying to restore this gun to museum quality, nor will i ever misrepresent this guns now apearent and confused history...
as for the serial number issue, i was questioning hals responce because it didnt make sense. The gun is stamped as "Model 1898 Springfield Armory 219XXX" and hal said that the 99's were approved at 216022. so where im confused is that this is definatly stamped 1898 no question of that, does that mean that it was a 98 converted to a 99? also, before i bring up the other thing, do the serial nimbers run in forward or reverse order? because if the serial number is correct than this gun is a 99? but since the issue has NO bearing on what im trying to find out here, it can be dropped... but its something intresting, and despite what you may think, i like to learn new things and this has struck me as intresting....
finally, does anyone know about the buttplate issue? since ive never seen an authentic KRAG buttplate up close and in person, i still have no idea as to how closely they are to an 03s
so, im sorry if i implied that hal didnt know what he was talking about, trust me, im not one to call names if im not an authority of the subject....so, dont give up on me, im just looking for help...
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Martin Wagner
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
Hello: I'll just answer the buttplate question for now. The Krag buttplate from the Model '96 to EOP looked very similar to the '03 buttplate, but was slightly longer but had the same curvature. Very early '03s can be found with cut down Krag buttplates which can be distinguished by a smaller trap and matching assembly numbers on the plate and trap.
One more thing concerning DCM Krag carbine sales. There is absolutely NO WAY to authenticate such a weapon without a bill of sale or packing slip. I just gave up trying to find out after 2 years of suffering with the holder of these records. After mailing me 2 lists I returned them and was refunded my money.
These records are an abomination. The lists came to me with partial information and every weapon was listed a a model '98. That's what happens when you have low paid civilians doing data entry work about something they have no expertise about and working from records that have been stored in a most sloven manner for the past 50-70 years.
One more thing concerning DCM Krag carbine sales. There is absolutely NO WAY to authenticate such a weapon without a bill of sale or packing slip. I just gave up trying to find out after 2 years of suffering with the holder of these records. After mailing me 2 lists I returned them and was refunded my money.
These records are an abomination. The lists came to me with partial information and every weapon was listed a a model '98. That's what happens when you have low paid civilians doing data entry work about something they have no expertise about and working from records that have been stored in a most sloven manner for the past 50-70 years.
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
Hello again,
It seems that the problem was in the translation! You started out looking for information then appeared to reject or disregard it. I appologize if I seemed harsh, but that is how I interpreted your response. Now lets put that behind us and restart.
Model '98 carbines were in the serial number range from123,161 to 130,965 (+/- a few numbers I have been told) but not all in this range were carbines some were rifles as only about 5,000 M'98 carbines were produced, to the best of my knowledge all in 1898. Your gun with a serial number around 219??? would have been a rifle produced in 1899. What I got from Hal's fact about the serial no is that if a carbine was produced in that serial range then it would be stamped 1899.
As I said before I got a stock directly from Boyds quite a bit cheaper than from Numrich. The fitting takes a little time and some wood working knowledge and tools. But can be done at home. If you know a gunsmith just explain your project and ask for input/estimate. A good gunsmith should be able to do the basic action fitting in 1 hour +/- a little, then you can do the final finish on the out side. Butt plates are out there. Somtimes on the auction sites but parts guys have some also. The m'03 butt plate is close a little wider and a little shorter I think (or the other way maybe) but can be fitted easily, esp if you are doing your own stock. There are many diffrent legit combinations of sights in the progression of armory refitting in the life of the Krag depending on numerous factors. Your M'96 sight should serve your purpose. If you have to have an "original" type front sight for the matches you want to shoot in, S&S has repro posts and blades. The post will have to be fitted into the barrel by a gunsmith though. Again not a big job but another expense. To be original looking you should have a hand guard as well and ones to fit theM'96 site are scarce and expensive. By the time you are done you could have a "money pit" you might be better off to buy a cut down that is already done and sell your sporter.
Good luck,
Ned
It seems that the problem was in the translation! You started out looking for information then appeared to reject or disregard it. I appologize if I seemed harsh, but that is how I interpreted your response. Now lets put that behind us and restart.
Model '98 carbines were in the serial number range from123,161 to 130,965 (+/- a few numbers I have been told) but not all in this range were carbines some were rifles as only about 5,000 M'98 carbines were produced, to the best of my knowledge all in 1898. Your gun with a serial number around 219??? would have been a rifle produced in 1899. What I got from Hal's fact about the serial no is that if a carbine was produced in that serial range then it would be stamped 1899.
As I said before I got a stock directly from Boyds quite a bit cheaper than from Numrich. The fitting takes a little time and some wood working knowledge and tools. But can be done at home. If you know a gunsmith just explain your project and ask for input/estimate. A good gunsmith should be able to do the basic action fitting in 1 hour +/- a little, then you can do the final finish on the out side. Butt plates are out there. Somtimes on the auction sites but parts guys have some also. The m'03 butt plate is close a little wider and a little shorter I think (or the other way maybe) but can be fitted easily, esp if you are doing your own stock. There are many diffrent legit combinations of sights in the progression of armory refitting in the life of the Krag depending on numerous factors. Your M'96 sight should serve your purpose. If you have to have an "original" type front sight for the matches you want to shoot in, S&S has repro posts and blades. The post will have to be fitted into the barrel by a gunsmith though. Again not a big job but another expense. To be original looking you should have a hand guard as well and ones to fit theM'96 site are scarce and expensive. By the time you are done you could have a "money pit" you might be better off to buy a cut down that is already done and sell your sporter.
Good luck,
Ned
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PiedTyper
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
ok i think im starting to understand this, youre saying that the model year stamped on the gun is not a direct reflection of the actual year it was produced? and if thats the case, oh well nothing i can do about it now 103 years later...
to the stock issue... i have seen (not exactly sure where) new handguards also from boyds for (i think) about 20bucks, so stock and hadgurad looks as though it may set me back about 130-140 as for taking it to a gunsmith, not going to happen here, i live in ocala florida, a 1 gunsmith town, and hes the pits (last gun i took there was lost for almost a month and didnt reappear until after my lawyer called) so i can save some serious dough there, then the buttplate, which i think im going to go with the 03 since theyre a dime a dozen, at least for a pattern for fabricating my own{i said i was no gunsmith i didnt say i was mechanically challenged =) }...
and some more clarification here, how is the stock attached to the gun... here is what i have pieced togeather and let me know if ive got it all..: the stock is attached to the gun via the trigger guard and the two screws through that, then the handguard and stock are held onto the front of the gun with 1band(looking for some where to get the carbine type without the sling loops[or one that will work with some slight modification]) at the end, and 4? screws through the top of the handguard into the stock? (if thats the case, what do those screws screw into so that they dont strip out?) and if all else fails, liquid nails it (JUST KIDDING!)
ok and now for the part where the people that know can teach us that dont something new, the questions...
1) can someone give a crash course class in how to use the m96 sights? i have absolutely no idea what the numbers represent....
2) on my gun on the back of the reciever, where the extractorgoes through the split, on the bolt side there is a little half circle grove cut out about 1/8" wide and 1/16" deep. it looks very deliberate and the wear on it would indicate that its been there for just about forever, what is it for?
thats about it from me for today, i hope to hear some more input and thanks again to everyone...
to the stock issue... i have seen (not exactly sure where) new handguards also from boyds for (i think) about 20bucks, so stock and hadgurad looks as though it may set me back about 130-140 as for taking it to a gunsmith, not going to happen here, i live in ocala florida, a 1 gunsmith town, and hes the pits (last gun i took there was lost for almost a month and didnt reappear until after my lawyer called) so i can save some serious dough there, then the buttplate, which i think im going to go with the 03 since theyre a dime a dozen, at least for a pattern for fabricating my own{i said i was no gunsmith i didnt say i was mechanically challenged =) }...
and some more clarification here, how is the stock attached to the gun... here is what i have pieced togeather and let me know if ive got it all..: the stock is attached to the gun via the trigger guard and the two screws through that, then the handguard and stock are held onto the front of the gun with 1band(looking for some where to get the carbine type without the sling loops[or one that will work with some slight modification]) at the end, and 4? screws through the top of the handguard into the stock? (if thats the case, what do those screws screw into so that they dont strip out?) and if all else fails, liquid nails it (JUST KIDDING!)
ok and now for the part where the people that know can teach us that dont something new, the questions...
1) can someone give a crash course class in how to use the m96 sights? i have absolutely no idea what the numbers represent....
2) on my gun on the back of the reciever, where the extractorgoes through the split, on the bolt side there is a little half circle grove cut out about 1/8" wide and 1/16" deep. it looks very deliberate and the wear on it would indicate that its been there for just about forever, what is it for?
thats about it from me for today, i hope to hear some more input and thanks again to everyone...
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Hal_Beatty
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
Hi all,
Glad this thread has taken off! Wish we could get more like it going here.
Ned, thanks for the defense, and Pied, no apology required! Just let me get one thing straight, I'm not a Krag expert! Just happen to like them is all. Now someone like Col. Mook or Marty Wagner, they're the REAL Krag experts.
'98 carbines are the rarest of the bunch and were supposedly produced alongside the rifles, so are the hardest to identify from serial numbers. My point about yours was that by the time 219XXX had been produced, all the KNOWN '98 carbines had been built, and the "prototype" '99 carbine had already been produced. For your info. 1899 carbines are different than the earlier models and were all marked "Model 1899".
The taper on the carbine and rifle barrels is the same, so a rifle barrel cut to 22" would have the same O.D. at the "new" muzzle as a true carbine barrel. Best way to measure the barrel is to slide a cleaning rod down the bore til it touchs the bolt face (lightly), mark where the end of the barrel comes to and measure that.
The small notch in the top of the receiver is the bolt hold-open notch. You should have a small pin or tit protruding from the side of the extractor that will catch in the notch and hold the bolt open.
And you're right, the model year stamped on the gun has nothing to do when it was produced. For instance, Model 1898 rifles were so marked right up until the end of production in January, 1904. However, if you were to have an original stock on a Krag (by that I mean known to be original to that rifle) the date on the cartouche would probably be the year that rifle was produced. There, that ought to get you thorougly confused!
Please, do what you want with your Krag. After all, it is yours to enjoy.
Regards,
Hal Beatty
Glad this thread has taken off! Wish we could get more like it going here.
Ned, thanks for the defense, and Pied, no apology required! Just let me get one thing straight, I'm not a Krag expert! Just happen to like them is all. Now someone like Col. Mook or Marty Wagner, they're the REAL Krag experts.
'98 carbines are the rarest of the bunch and were supposedly produced alongside the rifles, so are the hardest to identify from serial numbers. My point about yours was that by the time 219XXX had been produced, all the KNOWN '98 carbines had been built, and the "prototype" '99 carbine had already been produced. For your info. 1899 carbines are different than the earlier models and were all marked "Model 1899".
The taper on the carbine and rifle barrels is the same, so a rifle barrel cut to 22" would have the same O.D. at the "new" muzzle as a true carbine barrel. Best way to measure the barrel is to slide a cleaning rod down the bore til it touchs the bolt face (lightly), mark where the end of the barrel comes to and measure that.
The small notch in the top of the receiver is the bolt hold-open notch. You should have a small pin or tit protruding from the side of the extractor that will catch in the notch and hold the bolt open.
And you're right, the model year stamped on the gun has nothing to do when it was produced. For instance, Model 1898 rifles were so marked right up until the end of production in January, 1904. However, if you were to have an original stock on a Krag (by that I mean known to be original to that rifle) the date on the cartouche would probably be the year that rifle was produced. There, that ought to get you thorougly confused!
Please, do what you want with your Krag. After all, it is yours to enjoy.
Regards,
Hal Beatty
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PiedTyper
Re: M98 Carbine help needed
wow, that would make sense if there were the corrosponding piece on my extractor lol but like everything else on my KRAG its not exactly kosher lol. but that could be worth looking into if youve ever tried to catch your brass in a tree stand! so, are there thus different extractors? and do replacements useualy come with this feature??
As a note to all that have been following this thread, i found out that the safety can be braised back togeather, although it now wobbles around loosely, it works, and is a pretty good temporary fix untill i can locate an original...
Finaly for this time at bat, what would be an original finish for a KRAG in the time frame we're looking at, with my experience with old military rifles, the dull well (VERY VERY WELL) oiled about a million times look is in, and is it going to take 50 years of daily oiling to get that look??lol
I would like to thank you all once again for your help, there are many people out there that are willing to help, but are pulling things out of nowhere.. and its nice that the great internet (that al gore did not invent) has made it possiable for the correct information to be found by anybody that is willing to ask/look. AND once again thanks for spending your time to help educate those of us that just dont know, i hope that many others will learn from our little discussion.
THANKS
PS KEEP THE INFO COMING, i like to sound like i know what im talking about when someone asks about my KRAG!
As a note to all that have been following this thread, i found out that the safety can be braised back togeather, although it now wobbles around loosely, it works, and is a pretty good temporary fix untill i can locate an original...
Finaly for this time at bat, what would be an original finish for a KRAG in the time frame we're looking at, with my experience with old military rifles, the dull well (VERY VERY WELL) oiled about a million times look is in, and is it going to take 50 years of daily oiling to get that look??lol
I would like to thank you all once again for your help, there are many people out there that are willing to help, but are pulling things out of nowhere.. and its nice that the great internet (that al gore did not invent) has made it possiable for the correct information to be found by anybody that is willing to ask/look. AND once again thanks for spending your time to help educate those of us that just dont know, i hope that many others will learn from our little discussion.
THANKS
PS KEEP THE INFO COMING, i like to sound like i know what im talking about when someone asks about my KRAG!