Hello gents!
I have an 1896 Krag rifle but upon doing some research on it, I do have a question. Judging from the serial it appears to have been made in 1898 but the acceptance stamp on the stock is 1897. What gives? Has the stock been replaced?
Here's a link. Having trouble posting pics:
https://imgur.com/a/A2OhIdx
Krag Model 1896 question
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Wolf,
Welcome to KCA!
You appear to have quite a beautiful Krag rifle. Your rifle, serial number 99403, was made in March 1898, near the end of the run for Model 1896 rifles. It is not listed in the Springfield Research Service records.
The stock with the really nice cartouche is marked 1897 which means that it certainly could be original to your rifle made in the next calendar year. Often, though, Krags were assembled with parts taken from different parts bins and were not always assembled in chronological order for the serial numbers. Parts for Krags were changed quite frequently based on available materials, cost considerations and strategic design considerations from testing and in-field use by soldiers.
Krags were also sent back to the armory to be fixed or updated with new parts as well as sometimes field repairs. After official use by the military, Krags were sold cheap and altered or repaired by gun smiths and basement Dremel queens (Bubba!).
Your Krag is outfitted with a Model 1896 rifle rear sight, which is appropriate for its Model number and date of manufacture. It carries an early Model 1892 bolt sleeve with the grasping grooves. This is not original to your rifle.
There may be other interesting details to your Krag if you can get some other pictures posted. It would be nice to see the entire bolt removed from the action since it is partly an older one. I like the M1892 bolts..
How is the bore? Are there any cleaning rods or oiler in the butt trap?
The metal and stock look really nice for a Model 1896 rifle. It does look to be in correct military configuration. Nice Krag overall!
Thanks for posting and welcome again! (I have posted two of your pictures below. Keep size small under about 700 kb. Click the attachments down arrow repeatedly to post up to 5 pictures per post.)
Welcome to KCA!
You appear to have quite a beautiful Krag rifle. Your rifle, serial number 99403, was made in March 1898, near the end of the run for Model 1896 rifles. It is not listed in the Springfield Research Service records.
The stock with the really nice cartouche is marked 1897 which means that it certainly could be original to your rifle made in the next calendar year. Often, though, Krags were assembled with parts taken from different parts bins and were not always assembled in chronological order for the serial numbers. Parts for Krags were changed quite frequently based on available materials, cost considerations and strategic design considerations from testing and in-field use by soldiers.
Krags were also sent back to the armory to be fixed or updated with new parts as well as sometimes field repairs. After official use by the military, Krags were sold cheap and altered or repaired by gun smiths and basement Dremel queens (Bubba!).
Your Krag is outfitted with a Model 1896 rifle rear sight, which is appropriate for its Model number and date of manufacture. It carries an early Model 1892 bolt sleeve with the grasping grooves. This is not original to your rifle.
There may be other interesting details to your Krag if you can get some other pictures posted. It would be nice to see the entire bolt removed from the action since it is partly an older one. I like the M1892 bolts..
How is the bore? Are there any cleaning rods or oiler in the butt trap?
The metal and stock look really nice for a Model 1896 rifle. It does look to be in correct military configuration. Nice Krag overall!
Thanks for posting and welcome again! (I have posted two of your pictures below. Keep size small under about 700 kb. Click the attachments down arrow repeatedly to post up to 5 pictures per post.)
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Ah, that is very useful information! Thank you!
I'd be glad to post any pics you'd like to see. I'll try to get better pics of the bolt. I just need to figure out how to make the file sizes smaller!
The bore looks practically new and yes, I do have have the three piece cleaning rod. I do not have an oiler though.
I'd be glad to post any pics you'd like to see. I'll try to get better pics of the bolt. I just need to figure out how to make the file sizes smaller!
The bore looks practically new and yes, I do have have the three piece cleaning rod. I do not have an oiler though.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9892
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
'Wolfsburg' - Welcome to the KCA Forum. You have a very nice looking model 1896 Krag rifle.
Looking at serial number production estimates, calculated by the late-William Mook, places the manufacture of Krag, #99403, at around April, 1898.
Joe Poyer's book (appendix tables) places manufacture at around June, 1898.
It is rather certain your Krag was first manufactured sometime, between March and June, 1898.
Most Krags were returned to Springfield Armory or various arsenals & depots, during their use in service, for inspection and repair.
When this process occurred, Arms were inspected, taken apart, serviceable parts refinished and put in parts bins, and eventually the parts were randomly drawn and assembled into a 'rebuild' or reconditioned arm.
"Rebuilding" explains how a rifle stock, with an 1897 'cartouche', ends up with a barreled-action assembled in 1898.
(I corrected my initial post. The photo of left-side of Wolfsburg's bolt-sleeve confused me):
The 'ribbed' bolt-sleeve, with its extractor retained by a screw, is an updated model 1892 type.
Some of the early 'ribbed' bolt-sleeves were altered to use a regular 1896 or 1898 Safety-Lever. These are sometimes seen on model 1896 and 1898 Krags.
IMHO - These 'recycled' early bolt-sleeves are an interesting part variation. I suspect this was not the bolt-sleeve on Wolfburg's model 1896 Krag when it was first built.
p.s. - The nickel-plated cartridge size oil containers show up and sell for about $15 to $20. (Grandpa's Gun-Parts in KCA Classifieds has Oiler for $18).
Attached - Photos of a Springfield Armory modified early bolt-sleeve, (for re-use), and one in original form.
Looking at serial number production estimates, calculated by the late-William Mook, places the manufacture of Krag, #99403, at around April, 1898.
Joe Poyer's book (appendix tables) places manufacture at around June, 1898.
It is rather certain your Krag was first manufactured sometime, between March and June, 1898.
Most Krags were returned to Springfield Armory or various arsenals & depots, during their use in service, for inspection and repair.
When this process occurred, Arms were inspected, taken apart, serviceable parts refinished and put in parts bins, and eventually the parts were randomly drawn and assembled into a 'rebuild' or reconditioned arm.
"Rebuilding" explains how a rifle stock, with an 1897 'cartouche', ends up with a barreled-action assembled in 1898.
(I corrected my initial post. The photo of left-side of Wolfsburg's bolt-sleeve confused me):
The 'ribbed' bolt-sleeve, with its extractor retained by a screw, is an updated model 1892 type.
Some of the early 'ribbed' bolt-sleeves were altered to use a regular 1896 or 1898 Safety-Lever. These are sometimes seen on model 1896 and 1898 Krags.
IMHO - These 'recycled' early bolt-sleeves are an interesting part variation. I suspect this was not the bolt-sleeve on Wolfburg's model 1896 Krag when it was first built.
p.s. - The nickel-plated cartridge size oil containers show up and sell for about $15 to $20. (Grandpa's Gun-Parts in KCA Classifieds has Oiler for $18).
Attached - Photos of a Springfield Armory modified early bolt-sleeve, (for re-use), and one in original form.
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Thanks for the welcome! So the updated 1892 shroud was likely added during refurbishment and not during manufacture. I guess they didn't want to waste any leftovers!
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9892
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Regarding conversion of model 1892 bolt-sleeves to model 1896 configuration:
Frank Mallory in his book, "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, page 217, gives January, 1900, as the Ordnance Department approval date for converting Model 1892 bolt-sleeves to Model 1896 pattern.
Joe Poyer in his book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", page 142, wrote the conversion of bolt-sleeves to 1896 pattern started in January, 1897, and were used on Model 1892 rifles converted to the Model 1896 pattern.
William Brophy in his book, "The Krag Rifle", page 33, describes the conversion steps and states: "This sleeve was used on Model 1892 Rifles that were converted to the Model of 1896.
When Wolfsburg's model 1896 rifle was new, bright, and shiny, early in 1898, I would bet it was wearing a regular model 1896 bolt-sleeve.
FWIW - There probably were not a lot of model 1892 bolt-sleeves for conversion, until the early rifles were called in to make "model 1896 updates".
Frank Mallory in his book, "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, page 217, gives January, 1900, as the Ordnance Department approval date for converting Model 1892 bolt-sleeves to Model 1896 pattern.
Joe Poyer in his book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", page 142, wrote the conversion of bolt-sleeves to 1896 pattern started in January, 1897, and were used on Model 1892 rifles converted to the Model 1896 pattern.
William Brophy in his book, "The Krag Rifle", page 33, describes the conversion steps and states: "This sleeve was used on Model 1892 Rifles that were converted to the Model of 1896.
When Wolfsburg's model 1896 rifle was new, bright, and shiny, early in 1898, I would bet it was wearing a regular model 1896 bolt-sleeve.
FWIW - There probably were not a lot of model 1892 bolt-sleeves for conversion, until the early rifles were called in to make "model 1896 updates".
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Ah, I understand. So these probably were mostly likely used on updated Model 1892s
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9892
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
That's what some authors suggest.
I do not know this for a fact, but, altering the obsolete bolt-sleeves, while updating early model Krags to model 1896 configuration seems logical, to me.
I have only handled a few of the "model 1892 updated to model 1896 rifles". I don't recall the type of bolt-sleeve that was on them.
Other KCA members are more experienced with the early Krags, updates, and have examples in their collections.
It would be great to hear of their experience and views.
(With Krags, we always have to keep in mind that the rifles were utilized until the 1920's: National Guard, WW-1 Training Rifles, Navy use, Police Agencies, VFW, and other uses. Odd things can happen going through so many hands).
I do not know this for a fact, but, altering the obsolete bolt-sleeves, while updating early model Krags to model 1896 configuration seems logical, to me.
I have only handled a few of the "model 1892 updated to model 1896 rifles". I don't recall the type of bolt-sleeve that was on them.
Other KCA members are more experienced with the early Krags, updates, and have examples in their collections.
It would be great to hear of their experience and views.
(With Krags, we always have to keep in mind that the rifles were utilized until the 1920's: National Guard, WW-1 Training Rifles, Navy use, Police Agencies, VFW, and other uses. Odd things can happen going through so many hands).
Re: Krag Model 1896 question
Wolfsburg,
This is a good discussion about changes to the Krag and what happened when and for what reason(s).
The real answer is "We don't know."
As butlers has stated, there were many opinions about what was done and when and what changes were made at Springfield Armory with regard to updated changes for the M1892 to M1896 configurations.
Since these great rifles and carbines were made, they have been passed through so many hands and have had so many different changes, there is not enough documentation to support what were official changes and what was done by people outside of Springfield Armory of even "official" changes in the field. Many gun smiths and Bubbas have had their hands on these things there is no way to tell how your Krag got to where it is today. Chances are these changes you have are not official alterations.
But, I would still like to see pictures of your bolt removed from the action to see how it is fully configured.
Some of the M1896 Krags that I have that are updated Model 1892s have some of the M1892 features to the bolt and some have M1896 features. Not all updated M1896 rifles have the original grasping grooves that you have. These bolts were updated differently based on what parts they had and what parts may have been damaged or worn enough to warrant changing.
So, there is no across the board consistency as to how every Krag was updated to Model 1896 configuration when they were sent back later for upgrade, whether it was 1898 or later. See how this is so confusing? One of the reasons this is a big jumble is because so many of the Krag parts were interchangeable through the different model years. Thus, a M1892 bolt fits and can work fine in later Krags. Some parts are not specifically interchangeable but may fit and seem to function fine. Very confusing to all of us.
Here is a link showing differences to the Krag bolts through the different models:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1579480435
This is a good discussion about changes to the Krag and what happened when and for what reason(s).
The real answer is "We don't know."
As butlers has stated, there were many opinions about what was done and when and what changes were made at Springfield Armory with regard to updated changes for the M1892 to M1896 configurations.
Since these great rifles and carbines were made, they have been passed through so many hands and have had so many different changes, there is not enough documentation to support what were official changes and what was done by people outside of Springfield Armory of even "official" changes in the field. Many gun smiths and Bubbas have had their hands on these things there is no way to tell how your Krag got to where it is today. Chances are these changes you have are not official alterations.
But, I would still like to see pictures of your bolt removed from the action to see how it is fully configured.
Some of the M1896 Krags that I have that are updated Model 1892s have some of the M1892 features to the bolt and some have M1896 features. Not all updated M1896 rifles have the original grasping grooves that you have. These bolts were updated differently based on what parts they had and what parts may have been damaged or worn enough to warrant changing.
So, there is no across the board consistency as to how every Krag was updated to Model 1896 configuration when they were sent back later for upgrade, whether it was 1898 or later. See how this is so confusing? One of the reasons this is a big jumble is because so many of the Krag parts were interchangeable through the different model years. Thus, a M1892 bolt fits and can work fine in later Krags. Some parts are not specifically interchangeable but may fit and seem to function fine. Very confusing to all of us.
Here is a link showing differences to the Krag bolts through the different models:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1579480435