I'm seeking SRS information about a seemingly reasonable original 1899 carbine SN 248910 that I just picked up. It has what I would call finish wear from honest use. The SN has it manufactured in 1899 and the cartouche matches with an 1899 date. The stock has a rack number stamped on the top of the butt so it sat in an arms room at some point in its life. Can anyone help with the search?
One other question. It has a 1901 rear sight with what Poyer calls a Type 8 handguard (humped handguard for the 1901 sight). The front sight is marked with a "c". Poyer says that the front sights are marked on the left. Mine is marked on the right. Is this correct?
I got my first Krag (1898 rifle) in 1972, and still have it. I paid $50 for it. I remember my father saying I paid too much; the going price for Krags was $25.
Thanks for the help.
New member with questions about a 1899C
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olderthansome
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:19 pm
Re: New member with questions about a 1899C
Your carbine number is not listed in Mallory's book, but that's not
surprising since most Krag numbers are not. There might be some other people here who have access to more complete SRS (Springfield Research Service) numbers and i am sure you will hear from them. The 1901 rear sight is commonly found on many Krag carbines of the same vintage if reworked after 1899, but I do not use Poyer's book so I can't help with answers to the questions you have. Usually, the common, Carbine hand guard for the 1901 Carbine sight is referred to as the "humped hand guard" for obvious reasons. There are almost as many hand guard varieties as there are models of sights. The 1901 Rifle sight does not use a humped model guard.
surprising since most Krag numbers are not. There might be some other people here who have access to more complete SRS (Springfield Research Service) numbers and i am sure you will hear from them. The 1901 rear sight is commonly found on many Krag carbines of the same vintage if reworked after 1899, but I do not use Poyer's book so I can't help with answers to the questions you have. Usually, the common, Carbine hand guard for the 1901 Carbine sight is referred to as the "humped hand guard" for obvious reasons. There are almost as many hand guard varieties as there are models of sights. The 1901 Rifle sight does not use a humped model guard.
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oldsoldier
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:40 pm
Re: New member with questions about a 1899C
Thanks for the insights. Take care!
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9881
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: New member with questions about a 1899C
"Oldsoldier" - Welcome to the KCA Forum! It sounds like you have a nice model 1899 carbine, that should be fun to shoot.
The U.S. model 1899 Krag carbine front-sight blade is normally marked with a "C" on the right-side.
Because the 1899 blade is taller, than the blade used with the 1896 carbine rear-sight, the "C" is clearly visible.
(BTW - The '1896 type blades' were marked very low on the left with a "C". The '1896 type blade' requires removal to view the "C").
IMHO - Poyer, (page 178), is incorrect, about the "C" mark, on the 1899 carbine 'sight-blade'.
Attached photo: 1899 carbine front-sight
The U.S. model 1899 Krag carbine front-sight blade is normally marked with a "C" on the right-side.
Because the 1899 blade is taller, than the blade used with the 1896 carbine rear-sight, the "C" is clearly visible.
(BTW - The '1896 type blades' were marked very low on the left with a "C". The '1896 type blade' requires removal to view the "C").
IMHO - Poyer, (page 178), is incorrect, about the "C" mark, on the 1899 carbine 'sight-blade'.
Attached photo: 1899 carbine front-sight
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9881
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: New member with questions about a 1899C
"Oldsoldier" - Some additional observations:
Your model 1899 carbine, serial #248910, was likely assembled around February to April, 1900.
(Poyer's tables have it in March, 1900.
William Mook compiled data that projected manufacture in February, 1900).
Your carbine was manufactured during an interesting period.
Its first rear-sight was likely the carbine version of the "3-notch" Dickson sight, (a.k.a. the model 1898 sight). This sight was built and regulated for the 'improved', higher-velocity, 2,200 foot per second Krag ammo.
This 'hotter' ammunition was blamed for causing cracked Bolt Locking-Lugs and was discontinued.
The "3-notch" sight was also discontinued and usually removed, because it was not correct for the trajectory of the regular 2,000 fps ammo.
Your carbine is also in the serial number range of U.S. Krags that were assembled with the "Head-less Cocking-Piece". This was an economy move that proved to be more costly than the manufacture of the regular Krag cocking-piece.
It is very likely your model 1899 carbine was arsenal 'refurbished' a time or two.
In the course of this work, it received up-to-date sights, hand-guard, and likely a reconditioned stock.
When Krag rifles and carbines went to the Armory, arsenals, or depots, for rebuilding/repair and upgrades, the guns were taken apart, parts re-finished, and new mixtures of correct parts were put together.
This can explain why your acceptance 'cartouche' is dated 1899, when your carbine was actually made in 1900.
(Since your Krag had already been in service, there was no need for a new acceptance cartouche).
Hey, we like pictures and learn from them. How about posting some photos of your carbine!
Attached photos: 1. View of a 'head-less cocking-piece'.
2. KCA carbine sight photo & guide.
Your model 1899 carbine, serial #248910, was likely assembled around February to April, 1900.
(Poyer's tables have it in March, 1900.
William Mook compiled data that projected manufacture in February, 1900).
Your carbine was manufactured during an interesting period.
Its first rear-sight was likely the carbine version of the "3-notch" Dickson sight, (a.k.a. the model 1898 sight). This sight was built and regulated for the 'improved', higher-velocity, 2,200 foot per second Krag ammo.
This 'hotter' ammunition was blamed for causing cracked Bolt Locking-Lugs and was discontinued.
The "3-notch" sight was also discontinued and usually removed, because it was not correct for the trajectory of the regular 2,000 fps ammo.
Your carbine is also in the serial number range of U.S. Krags that were assembled with the "Head-less Cocking-Piece". This was an economy move that proved to be more costly than the manufacture of the regular Krag cocking-piece.
It is very likely your model 1899 carbine was arsenal 'refurbished' a time or two.
In the course of this work, it received up-to-date sights, hand-guard, and likely a reconditioned stock.
When Krag rifles and carbines went to the Armory, arsenals, or depots, for rebuilding/repair and upgrades, the guns were taken apart, parts re-finished, and new mixtures of correct parts were put together.
This can explain why your acceptance 'cartouche' is dated 1899, when your carbine was actually made in 1900.
(Since your Krag had already been in service, there was no need for a new acceptance cartouche).
Hey, we like pictures and learn from them. How about posting some photos of your carbine!
Attached photos: 1. View of a 'head-less cocking-piece'.
2. KCA carbine sight photo & guide.
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oldsoldier
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:40 pm
Re: New member with questions about a 1899C (+Pics)
Here are two pictures of the 1899 carbines I have. The top one is SN 248910, the one on the bottom is SN 346714. Unfortunately, the stock on to bottom one was sanded and has a repaired break.
http://www.vickersmg.com/images/misc/1899C1.jpg
http://www.vickersmg.com/images/misc/1899C2.jpg
http://www.vickersmg.com/images/misc/1899C1.jpg
http://www.vickersmg.com/images/misc/1899C2.jpg