Carbine Puzzle

[jwagar]

Thanks for the advice Dick. I'll go ahead and do that (and won't mention your name!). I'm learning quite a bit from the books I've gotten and from the seasoned collectors here. If it winds-up being a parts gun, lesson learned, I'll be able to make a more informed decision the next time.

John

[Tom Butts]

Serial number 16720 does not appear specifically in the SRS list of known serial numbers. It began life as an 1892 rifle. There were only possibly 2 (or maybe 0) 1892 carbines produced by Springfield Armory.

You have a nice looking gun there, but I would say that it has been put together after leaving the arsenal.

[jwagar]

Thank you for checking. Seems like the puzzle is mostly complete, just a couple of pieces missing. I've lowered my expectations of having an authentic, as issued carbine, but I'm not quite ready to throw-in the towel. I'll continue to chase down the last couple of pieces before closing the book. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to help!

[butlersrangers]

John, it was I that gave the advice to get Joe Farmer's book and not mention my name, should you contact him.

Mr. Farmer likes Dick Hosmer.

(We all like Dick Hosmer, a fine Gentleman).

[jwagar]

My appologies to 'butlersranger' for the mix-up.

I'm waiting on a couple of reference books to come in, which may hold the keys to solving my puzzle. I've come across general information which gave me hope and spurred me on. I believe the books I'm expecting will have more definate proof. I'll organize the information and post it as soon as I can.

[Ned Butts]

Another observation on the serial number. Based on the information at hand (I don't have access to all of my references) that serial number is almost 8,000 out of the known range for the first run of carbines which would make the "first in last out" "nonlinear" assembly explanation an extreme, extreme reach.

[jwagar]

I've found some great information in the book "Arsenal of Freedom", page 75, from the fiscal year 1896 report. Six carbines were used to test sights, the serial numbers listed in the results table are: 11803, 11804, 15787, 15903, 15969, and 21451. When I inquired through the Springfield Research Service for information on my carbine with serial number 16720, they responded that they had no information on my particular serial number, the closest they had records for was a carbine with serial number 16968. I've read that the Springfield Armory would have stockpiles of parts, which they would draw from to assemble rifles & carbines, so that would explain how the serial numbers could jump around. The 1898 cartouche would make sense for when they upgraded it with the 1898 bolt.

[cquickel]

You mind if I add your rifle to the KCA serial number database?

[jwagar]

I don't mind at all if you add my carbine serial number to the KCA data base, thank you.

It's been a while since I've checked-in. I'm hitting the books again and compiling as much detail as I can to, at the very least, prove that it's possible that this carbine is authentic, and not a parts gun. If along the way, I wind up proving that it is a parts gun, I'll have learned a great deal from the research effort.

[Dick Hosmer]

As far as I know, the two 1892s, and the six carbines listed by Brophy as sight test guns were the ONLY carbines made up before production started, in 1895, at around 24600. I have never seen documented evidence as to how the six receivers were marked (my guess would be "1894") nor their whereabouts, if any of them still exist.

As to 16720, I'd have to assume it began life as a rifle, and was later modified by some previous owner. The SRS reference to 16968 is puzzling, as Frank tried his level best to only include "real" specimens in his listings - thus he must have felt it had some validity.

The presence of an 1898 bolt in an early receiver, while it certainly would fit, is not indicative of usual SA practice.

I just re-read the earlier posts in this thread and nothing seems to have changed - very nice-looking piece, but highly unlikely to be "as made by SA".