1895 Carbine without saddle ring
-
MAINEGUNDEALER
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:15 pm
1895 Carbine without saddle ring
I had someone bring this 1895 (1896) Krag carbine in the shop. The stock looks correct to the period and has 3 holes in the butt stock as well as the lightening groove. It does not have a saddle ring noR did it ever have one. It has the "P" near the trigger guard. They talk about a 1901 replacement stock but this is not one of those since the later stocks I have seen have a shorter nose ahead of the barrel band and greater distance between the finger groove and the barrel band. I was told by a collector that some did not have the saddle ring in early production. I found another 1895 just like this on Gunauction.com I am in touch with him also. Does anyone have any info on this?
Fred
-
Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2284
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
That IS a (rather rare) late replacement stock from the 1901 period. They followed the original 30" pattern which included the longer nose, exactly, simply omitting the bar prep. They did not shorten the nose on those stocks to match the then current practice.
The M1899 (32") stock did have the shorter nose. The reason for that stock was to avoid having two profiling setups, since, without the bar inlet, rifle and carbine stocks could be shaped identically. Of course, the band spring and swivel cuts still had to be made but the basic forming was the same from butt to band.
It is unclear why the stock illustrated was made - logic would dictate that if new stocks were needed that 32" ones would have been supplied. One POSSIBLE explanation would be the 'discovery' in stores of a few hundred partly-manufactured stocks from earlier times which were then (1901) completed and used up.
The M1899 (32") stock did have the shorter nose. The reason for that stock was to avoid having two profiling setups, since, without the bar inlet, rifle and carbine stocks could be shaped identically. Of course, the band spring and swivel cuts still had to be made but the basic forming was the same from butt to band.
It is unclear why the stock illustrated was made - logic would dictate that if new stocks were needed that 32" ones would have been supplied. One POSSIBLE explanation would be the 'discovery' in stores of a few hundred partly-manufactured stocks from earlier times which were then (1901) completed and used up.
-
olderthansome
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:19 pm
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
Dick, Isn't it unusual that the stock would be replaced with such a late model, but the handguard, band and sight would still be from the original period? Would there have been some special provision in the change to allow for the shorter length of the guard and therefore the band position? Maybe this was all done by a later owner who was trying to preserve as much of the original carbine as he could. It looks like there might be a seam under the band.
-
MAINEGUNDEALER
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:15 pm
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
It looks original. I would have to say it has been like that for a very long time. I see no modifications to it. Here is one just like it. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10866925
Fred
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
It is an original late manufacture replacement stock. Just a rather uncommon configuration!
-
Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2284
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
AFAIK, we do not have clarity on why short stocks that were apparently newly made were installed as replacements (ca. 1901) on certain early carbines, after that stock was technically obsolete.
Use of the sling was abandoned with the M1899. My guess is that they discovered some partly-machined 30" stocks and decided to use them, sans bar.
The problem with stock length swapping is not handguard driven - rather it is in the grasping grooves, which alone determine period of stock manufacture - there are no long stocks with short grooves, and a 30" stock with long grooves would stand out like a sore thumb.
Bottom line: the stock in question is real, but who applied it, where, and why, is not clear at this point.
Use of the sling was abandoned with the M1899. My guess is that they discovered some partly-machined 30" stocks and decided to use them, sans bar.
The problem with stock length swapping is not handguard driven - rather it is in the grasping grooves, which alone determine period of stock manufacture - there are no long stocks with short grooves, and a 30" stock with long grooves would stand out like a sore thumb.
Bottom line: the stock in question is real, but who applied it, where, and why, is not clear at this point.
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
I just purchased a carbine with a similar stock.
When did the saddle ring configuration stop being made?
When did the saddle ring configuration stop being made?
-
butlersrangers
- Posts: 9880
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 1895 Carbine without saddle ring
The 'saddle-ring' was definitely dropped with the adoption of the model 1899 carbine and the 'long' stock', August 4, 1899.
Frank Mallory, "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, page 102, wrote: "On December 5, 1898, the Hill Shops at Springfield were given the order that 'The swivel, bar, and ring will hereafter be omitted from the stock of the U. S. Magazine Carbine, Model 1898'. This order was given too late to affect the Model 1898 carbines, however, since none with stocks were subsequently manufactured..."
Some late 'short' carbine stocks, probably made as replacement stocks (or repurposed for that task), for model 1896 and model 1898 carbines, dispensed with the inletting for the 'saddle-ring bar'. (These seem to be rare).
Note - There are also 'long' carbine replacement stocks, along with appropriate hand-guards, that were made for the model 1896 and model 1898 carbines. These stocks made the earlier carbines close to the model 1899 configuration.
FWIW: I imagine the 1899 carbine signaled a change in U. S. Cavalry equipment and the way the carbine was carried. (No longer 'Slung' across the body).
There would no longer be a need for the Cavalryman's 'sling' and the 'roller-hook' that attached to the carbine's 'saddle-ring'. I am sure dispensing with the 'swivel, bar and ring' made for a stronger stock and quieter carbine.
Frank Mallory, "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, page 102, wrote: "On December 5, 1898, the Hill Shops at Springfield were given the order that 'The swivel, bar, and ring will hereafter be omitted from the stock of the U. S. Magazine Carbine, Model 1898'. This order was given too late to affect the Model 1898 carbines, however, since none with stocks were subsequently manufactured..."
Some late 'short' carbine stocks, probably made as replacement stocks (or repurposed for that task), for model 1896 and model 1898 carbines, dispensed with the inletting for the 'saddle-ring bar'. (These seem to be rare).
Note - There are also 'long' carbine replacement stocks, along with appropriate hand-guards, that were made for the model 1896 and model 1898 carbines. These stocks made the earlier carbines close to the model 1899 configuration.
FWIW: I imagine the 1899 carbine signaled a change in U. S. Cavalry equipment and the way the carbine was carried. (No longer 'Slung' across the body).
There would no longer be a need for the Cavalryman's 'sling' and the 'roller-hook' that attached to the carbine's 'saddle-ring'. I am sure dispensing with the 'swivel, bar and ring' made for a stronger stock and quieter carbine.