Dont Shoot The Zoot

[RicKrager]

Greetings All,

Returning to loading after a long hiatus (1981 to present - how time flies) I have found these many pages in the KCA Forum to be most helpful. I was taken by the suggested load as referenced ButlersRangers, 110grain RN over 26gr of IMR-4198 = `2000fps. I loaded a small number as a test and was satisfied my rifle seemed happy.

Now I am loading the rest of the box of bullets in my collection of old brass. Turning to a box, ~50 rnds, of headstamp WRA Co. .30 ARMY all was well until it wasnt. The photo will show the cause of my concern. I pulled this round out of the press and the first thought was, it reminds me of a zoot suit! Granted, there may not be many left who will understand the so I will say - flared shoulders.

This particular round measures 0.433 while the SPEER reference dia. is 0.4190 as is the Sierra. After three more cases exhibited similar but not as drastic deformation I thought I might need to clean out the case necks to ease the bullet home. Meanwhile the other part of my brain mulled over the implications. Should I try to chamber these rounds and fire form? But would the case fail, leaving me with a real mess - at least? Perhaps I should break them down, save the powder and bullet and try to pop the primer at the range followed by full length resizing the case.

Or is there another explanation I havent considered? I am not sure I want to force chamber these four rounds. That seems too risky. I hope there is value in mentioning this as it may be an issue another might encounter. Are there reports of cases being too soft in the shoulder area?

I await further information and thank you in advance if you have a perspective.

[Parashooter]

The cartridge shown exhibits the typical deformation that occurs when we attempt to crimp the case mouth onto a bullet where there is no cannelure to accommodate the crimp. The remedy is to back off the seater die far enough so its crimping shoulder doesn't contact the case mouth during seating - or select a bullet with cannelure and adjust die appropriately.

The same effect may occur intermittently if some cases in batch are longer than the case for which the die was adjusted. Be sure to trim cases to uniform length before loading them.

If the loaded rounds with buckled shoulder can be chambered with a firm turn on the bolt handle, they can be fired as safely as undeformed rounds with the same (safe) charge/bullet/primer - unless the cases are so long they're running into the chamber mouth and pinching the bullet (BAD). If they will not chamber without excess force, they can be pulled down, trimmed, and FL sized (without decapping pin) to restore usable form.

Seat/crimp die adjustment instructions (Lee, but same for other makes)-

INSTRUCTIONS:Screw the bullet seating die in until you feel it touch the case mouth. If no crimp is desired, back the die out 1/2 turn. If a crimp is desired, turn the die in 1/4 turn. The bullet must have a crimping groove or it cannot be crimped. Case must be trimmed to same length to provide a uniform crimp. Bullet depth is adjusted by screwing the adjusting screw in or out to suit. Bullets should be seated deep enough to work through the guns action.
CAUTION Seating bullets excessively deep will reduce the case capacity and
increase the pressure

[RicKrager]

Hi Parashooter,

Thank you for the information. For clarification, the seating die loaded about 75 rounds with no problems and was not adjusted to crimp. I will, however confirm the proper set up per your suggestion.

Had not considered a full length sizing after removing the primer pin from the die. It makes sense as you tell it and if necessary I will follow your direction.

As I hope to equal Pauls number of reloads per case I hate to toss a case unless there is a dangerous situation. I have a small number (<10) with cracks forward of the shoulder over the years since I first started shooting this rifle in 1976. I recently broke down and bought 400 WW new brass. My thinking - we never know when the well will go dry.

[Whig]

I agree. These have been deformed too much, in my opinion, to be used safely, though. I would discard these and use other undeformed brass.

Deformed brass like this can not only cause increased chamber pressures when shot but also may weaken the case at the neck where the deformation has occurred.

I have seen some of these in used brass that I have bought and I just toss them. I don't like to do anything that increases risk to me or my firearms!

But, they may shoot just fine. Be careful and watch the bullet seating like parashooter advised.

[butlersrangers]

In addition to all the good points brought up by 'parashooter' and 'whig', your Brass, stamped "WRA Co. - .30 ARMY", is very old and likely has gotten brittle with age, (unless the necks have been annealed).

Personally, I don't risk reloading brass from the 1930's & 1940's.
(I'm Scottish, but, new .30-40 brass is available. Using brass older than me seems like false economy).

When I recently made 'reduced' .30-40 loads with the 110 grain RN projectiles, I noticed a bit more resistance to the bullet base entering the case-mouth, then I find with the heavier projectiles, I normally use.
(The brass used in my 110 grain 'reduced loads' was trimmed, de-burred, and pretty 'fresh').

Possibly, with 'stiffer' old brass, this resistance may have contributed to your partial case collapse.

I imagine 'flaring' the case mouth a bit would help the flat based 110 grain projectiles more easily enter old case necks.
Annealing, trimming, de-burring, and having the 'crimp' out-of-play should eliminate other potential bullet seating issues.

[Parashooter]

. . . Deformed brass like this can not only cause increased chamber pressures when shot but also . . .

Please explain the mechanism by which a slightly buckled case as shown would "cause increased chamber pressures"?

[Whig]

Heck, I would think with a buckled case neck, it could hamper easy bullet seating and make a ring of resistance greater than it should be, like a strong crimp, and create a higher pressure when the bullet is trying to exit with powder pressure building behind it.

Also, the bullet may be seated deeper than it should with the shortened neck and create a smaller case volume for the powder and therefore higher pressure.

I don't think the pressures would be significantly increased but my comment was that I don't like to increase risk in any way when I'm dealing with reloading and shooting. There's enough inherent risk with shooting, especially 120+ old firearms, that we should be prudent to be as safe as possible.

Any increased pressures beyond normal with a possibly damaged case potentially increases risk in my book.

Anything wrong with my reasoning? I always like to learn from any erroneous logic!

[Parashooter]

Heck, I would think with a buckled case neck, it could hamper easy bullet seating and make a ring of resistance greater than it should be, like a strong crimp, and create a higher pressure when the bullet is trying to exit with powder pressure building behind it.

Also, the bullet may be seated deeper than it should with the shortened neck and create a smaller case volume for the powder and therefore higher pressure. . .
Anything wrong with my reasoning? I always like to learn from any erroneous logic!

1. Look at the photo. It's the shoulder that's buckled, not the neck - and the stubby 110-grain bullet's base is nowhere near the shoulder.

2. As long as the die body and seating stem were in the same position as for the other loaded rounds, the bullet will be at the same distance from the base (i.e. same OAL). The buckled shoulder won't cause it to be seated deeper.

If RicK has a caliper handy, it should be easy to find out if his problem cases are longer than the others.

[butlersrangers]

I wouldn't bother because of the age of the brass, but, if 'RicKrager' wants to experiment with this brass, he could pull the bullets and salvage the powder.

The (primed) partially collapsed cases could be 'fire-formed' with a suitable pistol-powder load and paper towel wadding.

Once 'fire-formed', the case necks could be annealed, trimmed, and neck-sized, to ready them for 'reduced-load' use.

[Whig]

Thanks, Para. I still believe in extreme cases, things like divots and crushing can increase pressures. op's case may not be considered extreme.

Bullets are salvageable. If you're hurting for brass, maybe try to rework the damaged ones but I'd toss them. Too many unknowns with weakened and damaged brass. I've shot many old rounds and I have also had many necks crack. I don't like crushed cases. I would imagine accuracy could suffer also.

I have found it advantageous to chamfer my cases for seating and I use lube on every case before resizing. Helps to prevent these problems. Old cases can be scary!