Show me a nice stock Cartouche

[Local Boy]

More cartouches

BTW: The top cartouche is located on my chromed ceremonial Krag that received much interest at a recent gun show. Many folks had taken pictures of it as they had never seen a chromed Krag before. Even had a couple teenage boys stop by the table and comment "Check-it-out, a blinged Krag!"

Another point of interest was the Krag 1899 carbine I had for sell... Most everybody thought it was sporterized? I guess we don't see many unsported Krags around these parts???

[butlersrangers]

Local Boy's first photo, showing his "pimped" (as we say in the hood) chrome ceremonial rifle, also is a great example of the distinctive grain found in various areas on the Italian walnut stocks.

[Lead Snowstorm]

Knute: I am not sure but i think the "blackened" appearance of our cartrouche's might be from years of oxcidation of the linseed oil finish. It shows up well in the open pores on the stock in both of our pic's. That is something that is hard to fake.

Agreed - my understanding of the blackened cartouches is that they are typically seen when a stock has been a little freshened up by light sanding and refinishing. Over time, the oxidation of the oils applied to finish the stock darkens the wood; when that aged oil finish is altered by the sanding and refinishing, the rest of the wood is lightened. The bottom of the cartouche imprint is thus brought nearer to the surface, but since it has not been entirely sanded away, the older, darker stain of the wood remains as the ghost of the cartouche.

An example formerly in my possession - I believe both the wood and metal of this carbine had been refinished. Note that while the acceptance and proof marks remain, there is no subinspection stamp left behind the trigger guard:





Another example from my collection: this 1896 has been arsenal refinished, and has new subinspection stamps ahead of the trigger guard. In the process the old acceptance cartouche was totally sanded off, and the old proof very nearly so; then another proof applied over it:

[butlersrangers]

I think you also have a nice example of Italian walnut that has been stained 'dark'.

[Dick Hosmer]

Bite my tongue for saying this, and I'm late to the party, but in running through the pics, my eyes immediately went "whoops" on that 1896. Glad I wasn't the only one - but that just looks, well, 'wrong' (strike, alignment, form, line weight, the whole kazoo). In fact, given the (P) is little funky too, and the wood looks so "fresh", I'd suspect a repro stock embellished with fake stamps from those assholes on Ebay who sell such items.

Don't care how nice it is (and that rifle is GORGEOUS - nothing personal here!!!) a piece of wood does not survive over 100 years of weather, handling, sweat, dirt, bodily fluids, without picking up SOME patina, shine, rubs, scratches, color changes, etc. That stock looks to be only a couple of months out of the sawmill. Again, I'm VERY sorry to be so candid, but that just looks too good to be true.

After another look, I think I see a ghost of an old cartouche underneath - perhaps the stock is real, but heavily sanded with a "refreshed" cartouche?

GREAT thread!!!

[mr.tickle]

Since all my Krag books are boxed up in storage maybe y'all can help me out. The only two markings on my Krag stock are "34" above a "P" on the underside of the wrist.

[butlersrangers]

'Mr. Tickle' - The small '34' stamp is believed to be from a stock-maker or possibly a sub-inspector at Springfield Armory. (These stamps will often be other numerals or two and three initials).

The 'Circled P' stamp is a 'Proof' stamp indicating the arm was fired and tested for function.

If a stock lacks a dated [J.S.A.] 'acceptance cartouche', but has the 'circled P', it is likely a replacement, that was put on the Krag at Springfield Armory or at one of the arsenals or depots.
Krag rifles and carbines that were repaired and rebuilt did not require a new acceptance cartouche. This likely is why many stocks will lack a cartouche but do have the circled 'P'.

Since Krag stocks were skillfully refinished and reused during the 'rebuild' process, many stocks have a faint cartouche. (The stock may also have a re-struck 'circle P').
This also explains why a stock cartouche will often be incorrect for the period at which a Krag was manufactured and accepted.

A stock that was replaced in the Field might lack any markings except the small stock-maker/sub-inspector stamp, behind the trigger-guard.

This is my understanding of how the 'system' likely worked; I hope I am not perpetuating myths.

Krag stock markings were not as refined as things would become with 1903 Springfield, U.S. Model of 1917, and M-1 rifles & carbines.

..... and something often comes along that simply makes us scratch our heads .... Who, What, Where, Why and When?

[Zac952]

Alright I have held out long enough, here is my 1901 cartouche, it is on a stock I purchased 2nd hand and didn't have a book to double check authenticity, after returning home I checked it by the book and believe it is authentic.

20220425_191507.jpg (588.69 KiB) Viewed 1497 times

[butlersrangers]

'Zac' - Your 1901 cartouche certainly appears correct.

Regarding Later Stock Markings:

Eventually the 'Circled Script-P' became a 'Circled plain-P'.

J.S.A. and other inspector stamps, like D.A.L., would become a plain letter 'cartouche' in a simpler rectangle or maybe with no outline.

Around 1908, according to Franklin Mallory, single Letters, like A, B, and C, began being placed on stocks to indicate arsenals and depots where cleaning and repair work was done.

("A" was likely used for Springfield Armory).

B, BA, C, CA, HH, and J, (sometimes with a small Ordnance Wheel), are also observed on stocks.
Some multiple letters are well understood: "BA" for Benicia Arsenal, "MOD" for Manila Ordnance Depot, "HH" for Honolulu, Hawaii (?).

The exact meaning of some mystery Krag stock markings hopefully will ultimately be revealed.

[butlersrangers]

Here is a nice [J.S.A. 1903] cartouche that 'Whig' brought to our attention back in March, 2020.

It was the model 1899 carbine, #429596, that was presented to General Frederick Dent Grant in 1903 or later.
It was sold, along with other Grant family items, by the Rock Island Auction Company.

(Apparently, the "Gen. F.D. Grant - 1898" plate marks his re-entering U.S. service)?

I saved some of the auction photos because it is an interesting, historic, and well documented piece.