50 round belt
50 round belt
I picked up a 50 round belt i believe for the 45-70 cartridge. It holds a 30-40 round ok. I will have to dig out a 45-70 round to see if it fits. It has a mills and orndorf 1894 patent date on it. I have seen these in khaki and blue but this one is black. Has any of the forum members seen one like this. Any ideas of who would have used it. Thanks for any help in advance.
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9898
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 50 round belt
King carp - Photos of the belt ends and back of the buckle, (showing patent & maker's name), would be helpful.
Are the cartridge loops sewn on or woven into the belt?
There appear to be some 'stripes' of darker thread. This was a practice of the Hurlburt Co. and the Spalding Company, to help locate & position sewn on loops.
Possibly, your belt was once khaki and was later dyed Navy blue. Some 'Re-dyed' belts didn't show good stability in staying 'blue'.
I have one that has faded to a weak purple.
There was a need for blue belts after the SAW and an abundance of Khaki ones, (hence the blue dye jobs).
(p.s. - Lots of .45-70 belts only have 45 cartridge loops).
Attached photos show a khaki Hurlburt .30-40 belt and one that was re-dyed to navy blue, but has faded. Note a .45-70 cartridge will not fully fit into the loop.
Are the cartridge loops sewn on or woven into the belt?
There appear to be some 'stripes' of darker thread. This was a practice of the Hurlburt Co. and the Spalding Company, to help locate & position sewn on loops.
Possibly, your belt was once khaki and was later dyed Navy blue. Some 'Re-dyed' belts didn't show good stability in staying 'blue'.
I have one that has faded to a weak purple.
There was a need for blue belts after the SAW and an abundance of Khaki ones, (hence the blue dye jobs).
(p.s. - Lots of .45-70 belts only have 45 cartridge loops).
Attached photos show a khaki Hurlburt .30-40 belt and one that was re-dyed to navy blue, but has faded. Note a .45-70 cartridge will not fully fit into the loop.
- Attachments
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- Hulbert_30-40_belt.jpg (193.18 KiB) Viewed 3513 times
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- Hurlburt 30-40.jpeg (97.33 KiB) Viewed 3513 times
Re: 50 round belt
Great info. Thanks!
14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
Re: 45 round belt
The belt seems to fit a 30-40 round better than a 45-70. The loops are not sewn on but woven together with the belt. It is definetly black with no trace of blue or purple. It has 45 loops. Just a guess but maybe used for funerals? I cannot find much info with a google search. Any other ideas?
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- 20240319_144944.gif (537.3 KiB) Viewed 3468 times
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- 20240319_144835.gif (796.08 KiB) Viewed 3468 times
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- 20240319_144801.gif (701.89 KiB) Viewed 3468 times
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9898
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 50 round belt
I believe your "U.S." buckle may be a reproduction. Original Mills buckles have the last lines of lettering almost running off the edge of the hook.
Too bad someone drilled a hole through your buckle.
Your belt is definitely made by Mills - Orndorf, given the end fittings.
The brass wire 'adapter' may be for one of the types of model 1873 bayonet scabbard leather-frogs.
Too bad someone drilled a hole through your buckle.
Your belt is definitely made by Mills - Orndorf, given the end fittings.
The brass wire 'adapter' may be for one of the types of model 1873 bayonet scabbard leather-frogs.
- Attachments
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- Mills accoutrement adapter.jpeg (478.49 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
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- fake_buckle3.jpg (328.74 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
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- original Mills marking.jpeg (562.99 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
- Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2291
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: 50 round belt
Granted I'm looking at pictures, not the real item, the ONLY one which I could see as being "black" is the very first one - all the rest of KC's pics look blue to me, albeit a dark shade. I do not believe that the lettering thing is completely positive or uniform. To me, his passes the test - some originals ARE worse, and the fakes are almost uniformly TOO pretty - but there is a gray area. I THINK that little "rail" is for hanging a leather box of pistol cartridges. The Krag bayonet scabbard always hooked - one way or the other - to the belt itself. It was the TD scabbards that had a couple of odd variations in attachment.
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9898
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 50 round belt
I have attached a couple of photos of 1873 bayonet scabbards, that require a wire attachment, in order to be carried on a Mills Belt.
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- 1873 bayonet scabbard.jpg (222.21 KiB) Viewed 3417 times
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- 1873 frog.jpg (535.81 KiB) Viewed 3417 times
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- Mills accoutrement adapter.jpeg (478.49 KiB) Viewed 3417 times
Re: 50 round belt
The wire "hanger" is not wide enough for a trapdoor bayonet scabbard. Maybe its for a Krag bayonet, sword or as Mr. Hosmer said a cartridge box?
- Attachments
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- 20240320_201529.gif (567.25 KiB) Viewed 3355 times
- Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2291
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: 50 round belt
The TD scabbards with leather loops were made to go ON the M1874 leather waist belt, or the concealed tongue of the 100 RIA experimental belts. The M1885 brass-hook scabbards could be used on ANY belt of the period. There were also some single wire hook scabbards made for testing on the canvas Ft. Lincoln trials belts, which had grommets in them. There were also several different twisted wire adaptors by which a loop scabbard COULD be attached to grommets or over the belt itself, but they were a part of the scabbard, not the belt. The goal was always to hang the scabbard in such a way as not to impeed access to the cartridges.