Model 1899 Carbine

U.S. Military Krags
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Fazer
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Model 1899 Carbine

Post by Fazer »

Hello. You were good enough to tell me about my 1898 rifle. I was hoping to get some thoughts on correctness and value of my carbine. Thanks
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Fazer
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by Fazer »

Some more photos of carbine
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scottz63
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by scottz63 »

Not an expert on these but, that is a nice one!
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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by butlersrangers »

The pictures look like you have all proper 1899 carbine parts, to me.

If the serial number is 244341, the receiver was likely manufactured around January or February 1900.
Your carbine now has a m-1901 carbine rear-sight and the 'protective' handguard, that was adopted in 1902.

Since most U.S. Krags went through a 'rebuild' process and Model 1899 carbines had updates with rear-sights and handguards,
there is a fair degree of latitude in what can be considered a 'correct' 1899 carbine.

A fine point would be the presence of a small "C", on the side of your front-sight blade.
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scottz63
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by scottz63 »

A little off topic but, I just noticed this carbine's serial you pointed out is only 190 away from my non-carbine. My full size being 244531 and this carbine being 244341. Did the full size and carbine share serial numbers or were they unique to each one! Pretty cool either way. :)

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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by butlersrangers »

Actually, U.S. model 1899 carbine, #244341, is a bit of an 'outlier'. The receiver # would appear to have been made in January or February 1900?

It could be part of the first block of model 1899 carbines, produced in September & October 1899.
Most of these 1899 carbines should fall between #225691 and 230581.

The second block of model 1899 carbines would start around August or September of 1900,
and the serial numbers are considered to fall between #279500 to 289054.

BTW - It is not unusual for carbine and rifle serial numbers to be 'intermixed' in certain ranges.

Finished receivers were serial numbered and put in 'parts bins' before assembly.
It appears, they were pulled out for use, rather haphazardly.
Krags were not built in numerical order.

Surviving shipping and storage crates can show a hodgepodge of serial numbers, stenciled on the 'box end',
indicating the specific rifles (or carbines) that were contained within, when packed.
The arms were boxed by model and sight type, but, the serial numbers might be sort of close or far apart.

Krag carbine "serial number ranges" are not exact. There may be batches in sequential order.
But, they seem compromised by odd 'outliers', singles or groups, that defy logic and make us scratch our heads.

"Receivers kicked under a bench or some left in the bottom of a bin, with new ones put on top", are commonly offered explanations.

Model 1898 carbines are especially troublesome. Only 5,000 carbines were made, with lots of rifle numbers generously intermixed.

(Mercifully, Model 1899 actions, although identical to 1898 actions, were just used to make model 1899 carbines.
Yet, model 1899 carbine, serial #244341, serves to indicate that 'outliers' show up and make even relatively tidy production 'blocks' messy).

Obviously to me, some devious Springfield Armory workers were intentionally messing with future 'gun collectors'. :lol: :D :twisted: :roll:
Last edited by butlersrangers on Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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scottz63
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by scottz63 »

butlersrangers wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:54 pm Obviously to me, some devious Springfield Armory workers were intentionally messing with future 'gun collectors'. :lol: :D :twisted: :roll:
From what I have learned in this forum, very obvious! :lol: :D :lol:

Thanks!

Just thinking about this, wouldn't it be cool to have a consecutive serial numbered rifle and carbine! Oh my!! LOL

Oh, one more thing. The receiver for the OP's carbine and my rifle were most likely made in the same week, maybe the same day in early 1900. Why is one a model 1898 and one a model 1899??? Were all model 1899's carbines?
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Whig
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by Whig »

Scott,

You ask some good questions.

Keep in mind two important points we discuss at times here at KCA. First is that the stamping on the receiver, after the first year or so of production, reflects the MODEL of Krag- not the year it was produced. Second is that Krag serial numbers were not necessarily made in sequential order. The manufactured receivers were produced and likely thrown into a bin. Receivers were pulled out of the bin, in no specific order, to be manufactured into a rifle or carbine.

And, Yes, ALL Model 1899 marked receivers were carbines originally.

So, a Model 1899 carbine could have been produced the same day as a Model 1898 rifle. Different models produced at the same time.

These should answer your good questions.

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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by butlersrangers »

There is also the phenomena of some model 1898 receivers having the last digit of their date 'restruck'.
This was done to make them into "model 1899 receivers" for carbine use.

Is it possible, that Fazer's model 1899 carbine, is one of these Armory "restrikes"?

That would cause Fazer's serial number to be an 'outlier' and not properly fit cleanly into a model 1899 carbine production 'block'.

I am not real familiar with the appearance of an 1898 to 1899 - RESTRIKE.

Is Fazer's date a RESTRIKE?

(The last "9" looks a tad larger, to me, than the one in front of it)?
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scottz63
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Re: Model 1899 Carbine

Post by scottz63 »

Whig wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:51 pm Scott,

You ask some good questions.
Thank you! I have a vast amount of knowledge on most Military surplus guns from my almost 40 years of shooting, restoring, fixing, and collecting them. I have many foreign Military guns from the late 1800's and up. I also have most all of the US Military weapons from the Springfield 1903 up through Vietnam stuff. There is a vast amount of correct historical data on all of these. Not so much on the Krag. Lol! There are so many anomalies and different opinions on the Krag, most of which I have tried to decipher here. It's kind of mind boggling to be honest but, fun at the same time. :)

Scott
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