M1895 Winchester Musket and the Road to Camp Perry

[Culpeper]

It only gets better.

So at some point a sleezy, *SLAG, rotten SOB *dinked with the internals of this rifle. I've already told the woeful tale of the sear spring. Well hang on to your panties. The chuckle head swapped out the carrier, carrier cam lever, and the carrier cradle. Mine are marked with a "B" stamp which just happens to be for the .30-03 and -'06. They are supposed to have "A" stamps.

How do you change a five thousand dollar rifle into a six thousand dollar rifle? Easy. Sell it to Culpeper so he can shoot it at Camp Perry.

Everything with guns is about lengths, angles and placement. A thousandth or two this way or that way is the difference between .30-40 and .30-06 or 35 Remington. It is no wonder I am not getting enough bullet lift to chamber the fifth round. Four or less no issues. Five? Good luck.

The goal remains the same, the road to Perry goes ever on.


SLAG - Stupid, Lazy, Arrogant, and Greedy (corrected)

dink(ed) - Not the word I was yelling a few minutes ago.

[Culpeper]

I had a carrier lined up a few months ago but when the outfit put in the mail it disappeared. I book marked the shipping link and it showed being in South Dakota this morning. Been that way for months. The place refunded my money but that doesn't feed the bull dog. Rotten Post Office.

So it looks like I will be shooting 4-4-2 in competitions instead of 5 and 5. I can do two reloads under 80 seconds like in last years CMP matches and complete the string.

Time to get cracking on my reloads again. I believe I will line up one of those RCBS 30-200-SIL molds and see what I can do with my half ton of linotype.

[Dick Hosmer]

I get the feeling you are more up for the challenge of getting a lever gun to perform than worrying about the caliber? After all, if you want to shoot .30-40, just use a Krag... Do the rules permit use of a Russian contract M1895? The 7.62x54R is a very accurate cartridge, and you can reload with clips! I can understand that modifying a .30-40 with guides* would be illegal, to say nothing of ruining the value of the rifle. Good luck on your "project"!

*just for grins, if you were to modify the gun, I wonder if .30-40 would work in Russian clips. Cases are pretty similar. To go even further afield, I'll bet a .30-40 barrel could be screwed into a M1895 Russian receiver . . . sneaky.

[Culpeper]

I get the feeling you are more up for the challenge of getting a lever gun to perform than worrying about the caliber? After all, if you want to shoot .30-40, just use a Krag... Do the rules permit use of a Russian contract M1895? The 7.62x54R is a very accurate cartridge, and you can reload with clips! I can understand that modifying a .30-40 with guides* would be illegal, to say nothing of ruining the value of the rifle. Good luck on your "project"!

*just for grins, if you were to modify the gun, I wonder if .30-40 would work in Russian clips. Cases are pretty similar. To go even further afield, I'll bet a .30-40 barrel could be screwed into a M1895 Russian receiver . . . sneaky.

Anyone can shoot a Krag at Camp Perry. How many can say they shot a M1895 Winchester Musket for the first time in ninety or a hundred years at the CMP Games? I believe the answer is going to be one.

I won't give up on the project even if I come in dead last at Camp Perry. Oh wait. I did come in dead last back in '17 with ol' number 112. I was on vacation from Africa had not shot it for years.

Yep you can shoot the Russian but as an unmodified Russian. Someone with deeper pockets would have to rebarrel a Russian into 30-40 and find out.


4.0 As-Issued Military Rifle Match Rules
Rule 4.0 defines specific rules and procedures that apply to all CMP As Issued Military Rifle and Pistol events.
4.1 As-Issued Military Rifle Matches
4.1.1 Intent and Spirit
As-Issued military rifles are rifles that were or could have been carried by military personnel in combat operations. These matches honor “those who served” and carried these rifles while on military duty. These matches also strive to preserve the traditions of military marksmanship. The intent and spirit of CMP As-Issued Military Rifle Match rules is to provide modern target rifle competitions for competitors who use affordable, readily available, as-issued military rifles of U. S. or foreign manufacture. Any rifle configuration or item of equipment that is not mentioned in these rules or that is contrary to the intent and spirit of these rules is prohibited.


4.2.4 Other As-Issued U. S. Military Rifles
The rifle must be a manually operated rifle that was issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and be in as-issued condition. Permitted rifles are the Caliber .30 U. S. Model 1917 and the Caliber .30-40 U. S. Krag. Other U. S. military rifles such as the Caliber .30-40 M1895 (lever action) and 6 mm caliber M1895 Lee Navy rifle may be used.
a) Rifles must be as issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, with standard stock and sights;
b) Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 lbs.;
c) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular military personnel, except that the front sight may be retrofitted with a blade with the same profile as the as-issued sight that is not wider than 0.100”;
d) The use of shims made of any material in the action and barrel bedding areas of the stock is prohibited;
e) Only U.S. Government Issue parts or non-U. S. Government or commercial parts of the exact same weight and dimensions may be used; and
f) As-issued M1917 rifles must be chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. U. S. Krag rifles must be chambered for the .30-40 Krag cartridge.

[butlersrangers]

Camp Perry vintage rules should be amended to allow 'hex-receiver' Mosins and 7.62 Russian ammo, as used at WW1 training camps and during U.S. North Russian Intervention. It was a surrogate U.S. Military weapon.

[Culpeper]

Camp Perry vintage rules should be amended to allow 'hex-receiver' Mosins and 7.62 Russian ammo, as used at WW1 training camps and during U.S. North Russian Intervention. It was a surrogate U.S. Military weapon.

Send an email to the CMP and make your case. That's how I got the 1895 Musket and Lee Navy added to the rules.

I have to ask just what is the significance of the hex-receiver Mosins?

[waterman]

Did the US-made Moisin-Nagant rifles have hex receivers?

[butlersrangers]

The Remington and Westinghouse model 1891 Mosin-Nagant rifles had 'hexagonal' shaped receivers.
It is possible 470,000 Remington and Westinghouse Mosin rifles were shipped to Czarist Russia and maybe the Provisional Government, which continued fighting the Germans and Austrians.

I believe the U.S. North Russia USN and US Army forces were armed with Mosins that were still stored in Britain. These arms were not shipped to Russia, in late 1917, because of the Bolshevik government making Peace with Germany, repudiating contracts, and not paying for things.

(I suppose 'Polar Bear' and Olympia sailor Mosin rifles could have been of British, French, or US manufacture).

WW-1 vintage model 1891 Mosin rifles had the 'hex' shaped receivers. The later round receiver Mosin models were a Communist thing!

North Russia during a civil war .... what a miserable place to serve, when you want to go home! The 'Polar Bear' Mosins were probably left in Archangel with Russian 'friendlies', when the US, British, and French, withdrew?

[butlersrangers]

US 'training camp' Mosin rifles will likely have a US stamp and 'eagle head' mark.

The US-North Russian Intervention Mosins and earlier rifles that got to Czarist Russia, will lack US ownership markings.

The early 'hex' receiver is visible in the attached Fort Sheridan photo.

[waterman]

The 3rd photo in the series shows a Lewis Gun. What caliber might that be? Just thinking about logistics.