Danish vs Norwegian Krag - Action strength/Chamber pressures?

[AndreasThielfoldt]

Greetings everyone.

I've recently acquired my first Krag, a Norwegian Kongsberg from 1921. Obviously I've wanted one for at least a decade, so I've read just about everything I could about them. One thing that is still not entirely clear to me, would be the respective strengths of the different Krags. Safe loads for the Norwegian Krags seem to differ a bit, and have been lowered over the years, supposedly to preserve the older rifles.

However, seeing as the Danish 8x58R is a substantially stouter cartridge than the 6,5 could ever hope to be, how come I rarely hear about "safe loads" for these rifles? With the heavier bullets and increased powder volumes, surely it must produce higher overall pressures than the 6,5?

On a sidenote, I've bought some S&B FMJ's for my Norwegian Krag, a case of 124gr and 140gr respectively. As far as I can tell, it should be safe enough to put a multitude of rounds of these loads through my rifle.

Anyway, I've always wondered if the safety concerns of the 6,5 Norwegian Krags is a bit overblown, considering the stoutness of the 8mm Danes? I've never read of any differences in the action design between the two. Only major difference is the magazine port and the barrel shroud on the Danes. It would seem that some old Norwegian Krag's get metal fatigue around the receiver, forming small cracks in the square angle on them. I've never read of this happening to the Danes, although I must admit I am still a novice in the world of Krags. Any education on these factors would be appreciated. Thanks

[waterman]

My opinion only: We read about safety concerns in Norwegian Krags because of the 6,5x 55 cartridge. Loads intended for Mauser type rifles produce pressures beyond what is considered safe for the Krag. One cannot tell the cartridges apart, especially once removed from their original boxes. Safety first, your eyes, your fingers and your expensive rifle.

The only 8x58R rifles commonly seen are Danish Krags and rebarreled older rifles made on Remington Rolling Block-type actions. A shooter with an old rolling block might be concerned about ammunition intended for a Danish Krag. Perhaps there is a forum addressing those concerns.

[butlersrangers]

I have reloaded ammunition for the U.S. .30-40 Krag, the Danish Krag in 8X58R, and Swedish Mauser rifles in 6.5X55mm.

With all three cartridges, I use 'starting' loads and keep pressures around or below 40,000 psi. I am more focused on accuracy than optimal velocities.

The .30-40 and 8X58R cartridges have a 'safety advantage' over the 6.5X55mm 'rimless' cartridge.
In the event of a cartridge-case 'split' in the case-wall or a case-head 'separation', the rimmed cases serve as an additional 'seal', to keep escaping high pressure gases in the barrel, rather than flowing into the rifle action.
A case failure with a 'rimless' cartridge, will allow a significant amount of hot high-pressure gas to flow into the action and bolt.

Of the three Krag action models, (Danish, U.S., and Norwegian), your late (1921) Norwegian action, probably has the best steel and metallurgy.
However in Scandinavia, ammunition for the 6.5X55mm cartridge has been loaded to lower pressures for the Norwegian Krag, than for the Swedish Mauser.

This is because the Mauser action is regarded as stronger and better designed to 'vent' escaping gas, (from a failed cartridge), away from the shooter's face and body.

If I had a Norwegian Krag in good condition, I would not be concerned about putting a few boxes of standard 6.5X55mm factory 'hunting' ammo through the rifle.
Once I had some brass for reloading, I would load lower pressure, starting loads.

Of the three Krag cartridges discussed, I regard the 6.5X55mm Norwegian/Swedish cartridge as the more advanced and modern.
But, I do like the bigger rimmed cartridges.
In my opinion, all of these cartridges are good ones, accurate, and easy to reload. There is no point in loading them 'hot'.

[butlersrangers]

I do have a Danish Krag Artillery carbine; I need to finish restoring the 'altered' forearm.

On a couple of Range outings, the reloads I was trying showed some promise.

I actually used Privi 8X56r Mannlicher brass, (also some Norma 7.62 Russian brass).

Not having Danish Dies, I used my 8mm Lebel Dies to 'neck-size' the cases and a 7.62 Russian shell holder.

The cases were loaded with 196 grain PPU 8mm projectiles and 40 grains of IMR-3031 powder.

(I got to get back to experimenting with this Danish carbine)!

[AndreasThielfoldt]

Thanks for the replies guys. Also, thanks for the PM reply to my other thread @waterman, I just couldn't reply with a PM of my own since my profile is too new.

The former chairman of my shooting club shoots his Danish Krag with self loaded ammo, made with some quite expensive 8x58R brass. Apparently he had some case splits on quitea few of them (for whatever reason, apparently the loads were not that stout), which was met with a bit of frowning, considering the price and availability of the brass. Atleast, as you say, the rimmed cartridges provide an extra seal. I've always appreciated this factor, especially in my lever action rifles, and my Sharps rifle, since the seal in these action types is often not as effective as a classic bolt action. As for the strength of the Mauser's... that is just hard to beat, even with modern locking systems. It definitely follows John Browning's old adage: "Make it strong enough... then double it".

I brought my Krag to the range today for the first time. Shooting some of those S&B 140gr bullets, I got a fairly decent group at 100 meters, about 6 inches. Definetely room for improvement, just have to get used to the sights. However, the casings were all very smudged around the neck and shoulder, which may just be due to the fairly low case pressure. It is just about the cheapest training ammo on the market, so I suppose it's nothing to be concerned about. Going back to the range for the weekly club range day tomorrow, to see if I can get a better grouping. After all, with open sights at that distance, it does require a consistent eye and trigger pull to get really good groups. Either way, it should be accurate enough to safely bag some deer

[skillest]

Greetings everyone.

I've recently acquired my first Krag, a Norwegian Kongsberg from 1921. Obviously I've wanted one for at least a decade, so I've read just about everything I could about them. One thing that is still not entirely clear to me, would be the respective strengths of the different Krags. Safe loads for the Norwegian Krags seem to differ a bit, and have been lowered over the years, supposedly to preserve the older rifles.

However, seeing as the Danish 8x58R is a substantially stouter cartridge than the 6,5 could ever hope to be, how come I rarely hear about "safe loads" for these rifles? With the heavier bullets and increased powder volumes, surely it must produce higher overall pressures than the 6,5?

On a sidenote, I've bought some S&B FMJ's for my Norwegian Krag, a case of 124gr and 140gr respectively. As far as I can tell, it should be safe enough to put a multitude of rounds of these loads through my rifle.

Anyway, I've always wondered if the safety concerns of the 6,5 Norwegian Krags is a bit overblown, considering the stoutness of the 8mm Danes? I've never read of any differences in the action design between the two. Only major difference is the magazine port and the barrel shroud on the Danes. It would seem that some old Norwegian Krag's get metal fatigue around the receiver, forming small cracks in the square angle on them. I've never read of this happening to the Danes, although I must admit I am still a novice in the world of Krags. Any education on these factors would be appreciated. Thanks

I'm a bit late to the party here, but in general the concerns about Krag receiver strength, especially with the Norwegian Krags, is very overblown. After shooting a bunch of different commercial ammunition, my rule of thumb is that PPU and Lapua 6.5 seems to be great in Norwegian Krags with no issues. I have used the 139gr FMJs PPU makes for 6.5 swede for years and its performed very well, even at some casual 200-400m competitions, and then I just reload that brass with 142g sierra match kings. I've used some Norma whitetail 156gr a bit as well and haven't had any issues so far as well but thats a 156gr. I've had S&B ammunition pop primers in both krags and my swedish mausers. I also had a Swedish AG42b have a firing pin break due to an overloaded S&B cartridge, so I haven't trusted S&B for a long time anyway with their ammunition, especially in Krags. I also tend to hear that Americans dont' have much issues with S&B, and that their ammo in Canada is the bottom of the barrel cartridges that the Americans don't get, so maybe my experiences with their ammo are skewed because of that.

[waterman]

Re: The expensive 8x58R Danish brass. There are many examples of brass for uncommon cartridges splitting on first firing. I have had some success in preventing splitting by annealing the cartridge cases (before they are primed!). I stand the case on a brick in a bucket of water, with the water level high enough to cover the rim and extend up the cartridge case about the width of your finger. Then, in a darkened room, with a propane torch, I heat the neck, shoulder and upper part of the case until the brass just begins to turn color. Then I use a stick to push the case over, so that it falls into the water and is quenched. This works especially well on brass cases that have been extruded (modern production method) instead of drawn (old production method, in use through 1970s).

[waterman]

Re: The expensive 8x58R Danish brass. There are many examples of brass for uncommon cartridges splitting on first firing. I have had some success in preventing splitting by annealing the cartridge cases (before they are primed!). I stand the case on a brick in a bucket of water, with the water level high enough to cover the rim and extend up the cartridge case about the width of your finger. Then, in a darkened room, with a propane torch, I heat the neck, shoulder and upper part of the case until the brass just begins to turn color. Then I use a stick to push the case over, so that it falls into the water and is quenched. This works especially well on brass cases that have been extruded (modern production method) instead of drawn (old production method, in use through 1970s).

[waterman]

I do not understand what happened here. Got "server error" message and then multiple posts.