I see that "Krag for Sale" has been moved to the classifieds. Our new friend was unaware that classified posts had to be routed to admin for handling. All well and good, but, I was unaware that there does not seem to be a way to reply to a classified listing? Is that true, or am I missing something?
He asked a couple of questions, which I'll answer here.
Bluebook error: The early carbines are marked "1895" and "1896" - none should be marked "1894".
Also, to be a true "transition" carbine, the safety should be smaller, the gas hole in the bolt must be ahead of the extractor pin, the extractor must have a sharp corner at sleeve, stock should have a thin-wrist, and, the earliest ones will only have two rod holes.
JTD = Jack the Dog. Some of his pitches over the years have been a little off the mark.
Board protocol
Re: Board protocol
The directions for listing on the classified page are clearly posted in "How to post a classified" although that post seems to have slipped down to the bottom of the Important topics. I will try to get it to the top again. We lock the classifieds to avoid "chitchat" that appears on some other boards. Questions can be asked on the main page or by PM before or after posting your classified. We just decided to be different, that is the all it is.
Re: Board protocol
Sorry about the posting...did not see the instructions mixed in with listings.
Dick, thanks for the information, but I am confused. I know little about Krags, but everything I could find says that if it does not have a model number before the 1895 it's a transition rifle. What do I have then. I read elsewhere that they were not making anything else prior the 1896 and that has the model prefix. Thanks.
Dick, thanks for the information, but I am confused. I know little about Krags, but everything I could find says that if it does not have a model number before the 1895 it's a transition rifle. What do I have then. I read elsewhere that they were not making anything else prior the 1896 and that has the model prefix. Thanks.
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Board protocol
You are welcome. I think we may have a bit of a semantics issue going as regards "transitional".
First, they made rifles, about 24,562 of them, the vast majority of which were marked "1894". Rifles marked "1895" do exist, but they are very scarce, and appear to include the elusive Cadet Rifles, of which literally a handful (with non absolutely "original") exist today. There may be some slight numbering overlap at the 1894/1895 marking change. Only two "Model 1892 Carbines" were made - they have unique full-length stocks, and both are in museums. A very few serial numbers in the 11xxx-14xxx range are noted as "carbines". They were used for sight development, and I do not know how they were configured, or if any exist today. I assume they would have been stamped "1894".
Next, they decided to make a good-sized block of carbines to equip the cavalry, but not in a "panic", nor by cutting down existing rifles, etc. The earlier production has the features I mentioned. The stocks with only two rod holes are exceptionally rare. Such carbines are marked "1895", "1896". The least common Krag marking is the plain "1896", which is found on both rifles and carbines. "Model" was added at approx. 37100, which was in the midst of a batch of rifles. Carbines with "Model" are from the second and third batches of carbines, with numbers in the 6x,xxx to 8x,xxx area. There are NO carbines in the 4x,xxx, 5x,xxx, 9x,xxx, or 10x,xxx ranges.
You have an early carbine, but I cannot tell from pics supplied how many of the truly early features are on it. Such carbines are a bit of a "curiosity" and generally bring a small premium. If everything is later, with only the "1895" date remaining, I'd expect value might be slightly less than average - that date, while rare on rifles, is reasonably common on carbines.
First, they made rifles, about 24,562 of them, the vast majority of which were marked "1894". Rifles marked "1895" do exist, but they are very scarce, and appear to include the elusive Cadet Rifles, of which literally a handful (with non absolutely "original") exist today. There may be some slight numbering overlap at the 1894/1895 marking change. Only two "Model 1892 Carbines" were made - they have unique full-length stocks, and both are in museums. A very few serial numbers in the 11xxx-14xxx range are noted as "carbines". They were used for sight development, and I do not know how they were configured, or if any exist today. I assume they would have been stamped "1894".
Next, they decided to make a good-sized block of carbines to equip the cavalry, but not in a "panic", nor by cutting down existing rifles, etc. The earlier production has the features I mentioned. The stocks with only two rod holes are exceptionally rare. Such carbines are marked "1895", "1896". The least common Krag marking is the plain "1896", which is found on both rifles and carbines. "Model" was added at approx. 37100, which was in the midst of a batch of rifles. Carbines with "Model" are from the second and third batches of carbines, with numbers in the 6x,xxx to 8x,xxx area. There are NO carbines in the 4x,xxx, 5x,xxx, 9x,xxx, or 10x,xxx ranges.
You have an early carbine, but I cannot tell from pics supplied how many of the truly early features are on it. Such carbines are a bit of a "curiosity" and generally bring a small premium. If everything is later, with only the "1895" date remaining, I'd expect value might be slightly less than average - that date, while rare on rifles, is reasonably common on carbines.
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reincarnated
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Re: Board protocol
My question is "how does the NYC lettering burned into the stock" affect value?
I was going to make a serious offer, but tiz winter, my furnace quit and this AM, I spent $7K on a new one. New furnaces trump old Krags.
One of my areas of interest is in the introduction of serious marksmanship & marksmanship training to the military, to recruits and to young urban youth in general. The period 1900-1910 saw rapid development of all sorts of ideas, many of which we have discussed. The link between this Krag and the Schoolboy Matches, including those at Madison Square Garden, are, at least to me, of of interest. My viewpoint is that the stock markings increase the historical value. But how much and is that view shared?
I was going to make a serious offer, but tiz winter, my furnace quit and this AM, I spent $7K on a new one. New furnaces trump old Krags.
One of my areas of interest is in the introduction of serious marksmanship & marksmanship training to the military, to recruits and to young urban youth in general. The period 1900-1910 saw rapid development of all sorts of ideas, many of which we have discussed. The link between this Krag and the Schoolboy Matches, including those at Madison Square Garden, are, at least to me, of of interest. My viewpoint is that the stock markings increase the historical value. But how much and is that view shared?
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: Board protocol
Public School Athletic League (P.S.A.L.-NYC) - refresher:
This organization had a very active shooting program from around 1907 to the 1920s in New York City Public Schools. It was promoted by influential men, like Gen. Windgate and President Theodore Roosevelt.
A lot of the rifle practice and competition was done on sub-target rifle machines.
1917 Spaulding Handbook mentions increased activity and purchase of Krags as part of War preparations.
This organization had a very active shooting program from around 1907 to the 1920s in New York City Public Schools. It was promoted by influential men, like Gen. Windgate and President Theodore Roosevelt.
A lot of the rifle practice and competition was done on sub-target rifle machines.
1917 Spaulding Handbook mentions increased activity and purchase of Krags as part of War preparations.
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: Board protocol
Spaulding Handbook, relevant pages, 1917: (Note mention on page 151: 'In January, 1916, the League purchased 100 Krag carbines and rods....').
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reincarnated
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Re: Board protocol
Most interesting. Would high school students of today dress like that? What happened to the program after WW1? And does a proven association increase the value of the Krag?
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: Board protocol
'reincarnated': My take on your questions.
1. High School Students of Today would only dress in Sport Coats and Suits for events (and Moms) that demand and expect it (Weddings, Funerals, or Special Dates).
Or at events like Court Hearings, where they're trying to pull one over on their Judge.
2. Many schools, with the exception of ROTC programs, seemed to have distanced themselves from 'Shooting Sports'. The P.S.A.L. - N.Y.C. appear later to have put their money and energy into more "traditional sports" (Football, Baseball, and Track and Field).
My hunch is that improved .22 ammo and Target Rifles, in the 1920s made indoor ranges and Youth competitive shooting programs more cost efficient and practical, than 'sub-target rifle machines' and 'High Power Rifle Outings'.
I believe a lot of Youth Shooting Clubs came under the supervision of The DCM, The NRA, Scouting, Sportsmen Clubs, Corporate Sponsors, as well as, some schools. I'm sure the 'Great Depression' hurt a lot of this activity only to experience a resurgence during WW-2.
3. Value and interest is in the eye of the collector. (I think the P.S.A.L. mark is interesting, but, many collectors would not).
(Attached photos of Washington D.C. area H.S. and G.W. University Women Shooters in the 1920s. Clothing and rifles became more practical for training and competition - IMHO).
1. High School Students of Today would only dress in Sport Coats and Suits for events (and Moms) that demand and expect it (Weddings, Funerals, or Special Dates).
Or at events like Court Hearings, where they're trying to pull one over on their Judge.
2. Many schools, with the exception of ROTC programs, seemed to have distanced themselves from 'Shooting Sports'. The P.S.A.L. - N.Y.C. appear later to have put their money and energy into more "traditional sports" (Football, Baseball, and Track and Field).
My hunch is that improved .22 ammo and Target Rifles, in the 1920s made indoor ranges and Youth competitive shooting programs more cost efficient and practical, than 'sub-target rifle machines' and 'High Power Rifle Outings'.
I believe a lot of Youth Shooting Clubs came under the supervision of The DCM, The NRA, Scouting, Sportsmen Clubs, Corporate Sponsors, as well as, some schools. I'm sure the 'Great Depression' hurt a lot of this activity only to experience a resurgence during WW-2.
3. Value and interest is in the eye of the collector. (I think the P.S.A.L. mark is interesting, but, many collectors would not).
(Attached photos of Washington D.C. area H.S. and G.W. University Women Shooters in the 1920s. Clothing and rifles became more practical for training and competition - IMHO).