iv got a krag here, unknown cal. or origin. its got swastikas on the barrel. The bore is dark, and seems warn. I got it in an auction, without being able to see the bore.
Its currently soaking in home Hoppes to try and clean out any of the old junk left in it. After a preliminary cleaning there was some serious carbon and black build up in the oil.
Can anyone comment on the bore of a well taken care of Krag, or even better have any pictures?
bore dark and warn
Re: bore dark and warn
A few more things to add to my post.
The swastika is E (Swastika) 5 or F (Swastika) 5 and has a 14 blow it.
The serial numbers on the action, and the barrel match. as does the rear site assembly. The odd part about the rear sight... it graduates all the way up to 2200.. is this normal?
The swastika is E (Swastika) 5 or F (Swastika) 5 and has a 14 blow it.
The serial numbers on the action, and the barrel match. as does the rear site assembly. The odd part about the rear sight... it graduates all the way up to 2200.. is this normal?
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 2286
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:11 pm
Re: bore dark and warn
Apparently you have a Norwegian Krag, in 6.5mm, which was marked with the swastika during the Nazi occupation.
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Parashooter
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:14 am
- Location: Kragmudgeon House, CT
Re: bore dark and warn
The swastika was also used as an identifying mark in Norway many years prior to the occupation. At the time it had no political significance. See post at http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1291512530 for this image in context -
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9880
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- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: bore dark and warn
Hotwire: Welcome to the KCA forum!
Parashooter is knowledgeable and correct. I believe that marking was used by the Norwegian steel or barrel supplier and it is commonly seen on early 'Konsberg Krags'.
The 'swastika' was an ancient symbol used by many cultures. Early books by Rudyard Kipling will have it beneath the author's name. I have seen it on old American poker chips, a sign for 'Good Luck'. I believe it was used by western 'Native Americans' and in India. The Nazis ruined a perfectly good symbol!
As Dick Hosmer related, your rifle is probably in 6.5X55mm 'Swedish Mauser'. (The WW2 occupation Norwegian Krags will have the Nazi Eagle and swastika).
It is hard to find Norwegian Krags with nice shiny bores. The barrels have a left hand thread, so re-barreling would be a challenge. Hopefully your bore 'cleans up'. A good Norwegian bore would look like any other good bore. In my experience, a rough 6.5mm bore will often cause heavy 160 grain bullets to tumble, but, may shoot 139 grain bullets very well. Unaltered Norwegian Krags are a desirable rifle. If you post pictures and a serial number, you will get more information.
Parashooter is knowledgeable and correct. I believe that marking was used by the Norwegian steel or barrel supplier and it is commonly seen on early 'Konsberg Krags'.
The 'swastika' was an ancient symbol used by many cultures. Early books by Rudyard Kipling will have it beneath the author's name. I have seen it on old American poker chips, a sign for 'Good Luck'. I believe it was used by western 'Native Americans' and in India. The Nazis ruined a perfectly good symbol!
As Dick Hosmer related, your rifle is probably in 6.5X55mm 'Swedish Mauser'. (The WW2 occupation Norwegian Krags will have the Nazi Eagle and swastika).
It is hard to find Norwegian Krags with nice shiny bores. The barrels have a left hand thread, so re-barreling would be a challenge. Hopefully your bore 'cleans up'. A good Norwegian bore would look like any other good bore. In my experience, a rough 6.5mm bore will often cause heavy 160 grain bullets to tumble, but, may shoot 139 grain bullets very well. Unaltered Norwegian Krags are a desirable rifle. If you post pictures and a serial number, you will get more information.
Re: bore dark and warn
I have several milsurp rifles - my Krag one of them - with dark and worn bores. I shoot cast bullets in them with great success. The key is to slug the bore and determine the best bullet size for your rifle. Typically, most find good success with bullets sized at or 0.001 over throat diameter. Also check the muzzle crown with a loop or magnifying glass. Even small imperfections can grossly affect accuracy. You are doing the right thing - clean 'er up and give it a try!
Re: bore dark and warn
SO, today I was able to use some stainless steel wool, Hoppes #9, and scrub from chamber to muzzle like a fiend. It was coming out DARK GREY for a good 30 min. After it started to patch cleaner.. "Cleaner".. I slugged the barrel from muzzle to chamber.
I did 2 sluggings, both of them came out smooth, with no sign of rifling. how ever both of them measured in at .25615". so the land to land diameter is 6.506mm. The groove to groove should be 6.5mm-ish... should it not?
Ill have a picture up in a few, but maybe this bore is dirty as F*%K, and just has its grooves FULL of junk? Im going to try fire-lapping.
I did 2 sluggings, both of them came out smooth, with no sign of rifling. how ever both of them measured in at .25615". so the land to land diameter is 6.506mm. The groove to groove should be 6.5mm-ish... should it not?
Ill have a picture up in a few, but maybe this bore is dirty as F*%K, and just has its grooves FULL of junk? Im going to try fire-lapping.
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reincarnated
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:16 am
Re: bore dark and warn
Fire lapping is a last step, taken in desperation, with no going back. There are several things you can do before resorting to fire lapping.
First, stop using the stainless steel wool or any stainless steel bore brushes. Those have wrecked a lot of otherwise OK barrels. If the grooves are packed, they are probably filled with some combination of dirt,dried-out oil & grease. Get a sturdy cleaning rod and several good bronze wire bore brushes in the .27 to .30 size. Start from the breech and scrub the barrel dozens of times. Follow that with some patches.
To go further, take the barreled action out of the stock. Things will get messy.
Next, fit a rubber stopper in the muzzle and fill the barrel with some good penetrating oil or grease-cutting solvent. Prop the rifle up vertically and let it sit for a day or 2. Then repeat the bore brush & cleaning patches routine.
Next, find one of those electrolytic cleaning sets. Put the rubber stopper back in the muzzle and fill the barrel with ammonia. Household NH4OH works, commercial grades work better. The electrolytic cleaner has an iron rod with a couple of rubber o-rings to keep it from touching the barrel. Use a DC low voltage power source, probably from some old electronic gizmo that failed long ago. Use alligator clips. Hook one wire to the iron rod and the other to the barrel. The idea is to plate the iron rod with all the crap adhering to the inside of the barrel or get the crap suspended in the ammonia solution. Allow the current to run for 10 minutes or less. Drain out the ammonia. Repeat until the ammonia comes out relatively clean. If this does not seem to be working,try reversing the leads.
After that, you need to neutralize the ammonia. I fill the teakettle with water, bring it to a boil, and slowly pour the water down the barrel, from the breech to the muzzle.
Then go back to the bore brushes and patches. By now, the barrel might be as clean as it is going to get.
First, stop using the stainless steel wool or any stainless steel bore brushes. Those have wrecked a lot of otherwise OK barrels. If the grooves are packed, they are probably filled with some combination of dirt,dried-out oil & grease. Get a sturdy cleaning rod and several good bronze wire bore brushes in the .27 to .30 size. Start from the breech and scrub the barrel dozens of times. Follow that with some patches.
To go further, take the barreled action out of the stock. Things will get messy.
Next, fit a rubber stopper in the muzzle and fill the barrel with some good penetrating oil or grease-cutting solvent. Prop the rifle up vertically and let it sit for a day or 2. Then repeat the bore brush & cleaning patches routine.
Next, find one of those electrolytic cleaning sets. Put the rubber stopper back in the muzzle and fill the barrel with ammonia. Household NH4OH works, commercial grades work better. The electrolytic cleaner has an iron rod with a couple of rubber o-rings to keep it from touching the barrel. Use a DC low voltage power source, probably from some old electronic gizmo that failed long ago. Use alligator clips. Hook one wire to the iron rod and the other to the barrel. The idea is to plate the iron rod with all the crap adhering to the inside of the barrel or get the crap suspended in the ammonia solution. Allow the current to run for 10 minutes or less. Drain out the ammonia. Repeat until the ammonia comes out relatively clean. If this does not seem to be working,try reversing the leads.
After that, you need to neutralize the ammonia. I fill the teakettle with water, bring it to a boil, and slowly pour the water down the barrel, from the breech to the muzzle.
Then go back to the bore brushes and patches. By now, the barrel might be as clean as it is going to get.
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reincarnated
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:16 am
Re: bore dark and warn
Ran out of characters. Here is more. Now you should be able to slug the barrel and get the groove diameter. Run a couple of oily patches through the bore. The lead slug needs some lubricant. The slug must be big enough to completely fill the grooves, which will (with luck) measure about 0.264".
When I slug an old military rifle in6.5 or 7 mm, I start with a .36 caliber lead ball for a percussion revolver. Oil the ball and start it in the muzzle. I use a small brass hammer and tap the ball gently until it enters the muzzle. Next, I use a piece of 1/4-inch brass rod stock about 4" long to push the slug a bit further into the barrel. An old but sturdy cleaning rod should push the slug the rest of the way with little effort. Push easily and note any places where the slug seems tight or loose. Put a rag into the breech to catch the slug. The slug should tell you how worn the barrel really is.
When you finish, you might use some minimally abrasive bore paste to smooth things up a bit.
My experience with old 6.5 & 7 mm military rifles is that they have quick twists and usually shoot jacketed bullets a lot better than cast.
When I slug an old military rifle in6.5 or 7 mm, I start with a .36 caliber lead ball for a percussion revolver. Oil the ball and start it in the muzzle. I use a small brass hammer and tap the ball gently until it enters the muzzle. Next, I use a piece of 1/4-inch brass rod stock about 4" long to push the slug a bit further into the barrel. An old but sturdy cleaning rod should push the slug the rest of the way with little effort. Push easily and note any places where the slug seems tight or loose. Put a rag into the breech to catch the slug. The slug should tell you how worn the barrel really is.
When you finish, you might use some minimally abrasive bore paste to smooth things up a bit.
My experience with old 6.5 & 7 mm military rifles is that they have quick twists and usually shoot jacketed bullets a lot better than cast.
Re: bore dark and warn
Thank you, more to follow.