New member here, first post. It's occurred to me that, in 30+ years of collecting US martial arms, I've never owned a Krag. I may have to change that soon...
I was able to examine an original-appearing 1896 U.S. Krag rifle (s/n in the 179xxx range, IIRC) this evening; it was in excellent condition and seemed original in all respects. The inspection cartouche, however, has me flummoxed. Rather than the expected dated scriptic initial within a box, what this rifle has is the three letters
"J.T.N." stamped in approx. 3/16" gothic letters. No box, no date, just the three letters with the periods after them. The letters are in register and evenly spaced and punched; it looks as if they were stamped with a single die. The single "circle P' behind the trigger guard is of the correct script serif style, and there is no sign of any other cartouche ever having been present anywhere on the stock. The overall impression of the stock is of one being 100+ years old, with the original finish from that time...that oh-so-hard-to-duplicate U.S. armory "red" color. The stock does not appear to have been sanded at any time The cartouche itself is in the correct location below the cocking piece on the left side. The best way I can describe it is that it looks like a 1920's M1903 cartouche, but without being boxed . To reiterate: the ONLY markings on this stock are the initials in question, a single circle "P", and a small two-digit number immediately behind the trigger guard. I'd say that perhaps this was a period replacement stock, but if that was so the circle "P" would be absent, no?
Any ideas? :icon_scratch:
Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
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butlersrangers
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Re: Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
Jonnyo55: Welcome to the KCA Forum.
IIRC - The Krag you examined may have received a replacement stock at a U.S. Armory. If that was the case, it likely would receive the 'circled P' (Proof function) mark after being tested, but not an 'Acceptance Cartouche', since it had previously been accepted for service. If the replacement stock had been put on in the field, it would lack the 'circled P, as well as a 'cartouche'.
I wonder if the 'Gothic' letters might be the initials of a civilian owner? It would be neat to see a photo of this Marking.
IIRC - The Krag you examined may have received a replacement stock at a U.S. Armory. If that was the case, it likely would receive the 'circled P' (Proof function) mark after being tested, but not an 'Acceptance Cartouche', since it had previously been accepted for service. If the replacement stock had been put on in the field, it would lack the 'circled P, as well as a 'cartouche'.
I wonder if the 'Gothic' letters might be the initials of a civilian owner? It would be neat to see a photo of this Marking.
Re: Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
I would really like to see some pictures!
Re: Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
I'm going to try and get some pics sent to me. I'm thinking that this may be an arsenal rebuild as mentioned, and that "JTN" may have been the inspector at THAT arsenal. The rebuild would have been fairly early, at least when the scriptic circle "P" was still in use.
IF it is, indeed, an arsenal rebuild, are there any updated parts which might have been installed that I should be aware of?
What was the date range of the change to the gothic circle "P"?
IF it is, indeed, an arsenal rebuild, are there any updated parts which might have been installed that I should be aware of?
What was the date range of the change to the gothic circle "P"?
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
(1) Great - we'd all like to see them.
(2) Hard to say - rear sights are the most frequent change on later arms. Gothic still seems incorrect for an arsenal.
(3) Krag (P)s were all serifed when newly made - the change occurred in the 1903 period. Whoa, you said "gothic" again - this time in a different area. Perhaps I am confused, but I equate "gothic" with "Old English", and "German" typefaces - that was the basis for my saying "non-arsenal". Are you saying that the letters are just simple vertical block capitals? If that is the case, then that WAS the style used - but I've never seen it without a box. This is why pictures are SO important.
(2) Hard to say - rear sights are the most frequent change on later arms. Gothic still seems incorrect for an arsenal.
(3) Krag (P)s were all serifed when newly made - the change occurred in the 1903 period. Whoa, you said "gothic" again - this time in a different area. Perhaps I am confused, but I equate "gothic" with "Old English", and "German" typefaces - that was the basis for my saying "non-arsenal". Are you saying that the letters are just simple vertical block capitals? If that is the case, then that WAS the style used - but I've never seen it without a box. This is why pictures are SO important.
Re: Unusual cartouche on 1896 U.S. Krag rifle
Yes...to clarify, when I say "Gothic", I'm referring to the plain typeface without serifs or any other embellishments. So, in this case, the "J.T.N." in question looks just as it does here on your screen...except perhaps without the stroke at the top of the "J".
I've seen a lot of different styles of inspector's initials from rebuild facilities...those from SA will always be boxed, but those from, say, Red River, or San Antonio, or Benicia arsenals might not. There was, at least in the post-WW1 and post-WW2 waves of rebuilding, a lot of variance.
The shop the rifle is at is about 100 miles from home, so I probably won't be making a trip just to snap a few pics. My interest in buying it, though, is somewhat warm, so I'll see if I can get the owner to take a couple of pics and send them to me. My only reservation is that I don't want to end up with a "mixmaster" full of parts of varying vintages. I'll ask him to photograph the cartouche and the rear sight area...any other areas I should be looking at?
I've seen a lot of different styles of inspector's initials from rebuild facilities...those from SA will always be boxed, but those from, say, Red River, or San Antonio, or Benicia arsenals might not. There was, at least in the post-WW1 and post-WW2 waves of rebuilding, a lot of variance.
The shop the rifle is at is about 100 miles from home, so I probably won't be making a trip just to snap a few pics. My interest in buying it, though, is somewhat warm, so I'll see if I can get the owner to take a couple of pics and send them to me. My only reservation is that I don't want to end up with a "mixmaster" full of parts of varying vintages. I'll ask him to photograph the cartouche and the rear sight area...any other areas I should be looking at?