Cadet rifle questions

[broadway]

Its been a while since I last posted, I haven't had much to say or ask regarding Krags until now.

A couple days ago I ran across a shortened 1898 Krag which was rather different than the typical carbine or carbine wannabe. It was roughly carbine length but had the front band with bayonet lug as would a normal rifle. After my earlier post regarding a short barreled Krag, I looked at the front sight and saw it seemed to be attached much like that of my 1894 and 1896 rifles. It definitely was not a 1903 sight pushed onto the barrel like so many other shortened rifles.

I didn't think too much about it until after I left the store and looked it up in my copy of Poyer's book. as my curiosity had been piqued.

From the brief look I gave the rifle and what I found in Poyer's book, it seems this could be a cadet rifle. Besides what little there is in the Poyer book, is there anything else I should look for regarding this being a fake or not? I already have questions as it was dated 1898 rather than 1899 but the receiver was a bit pitted and I did not have my reading glasses with so that date has a small possibility of being wrong.

The shop is asking $695 for the rifle so, if it is a Cadet rifle, that may be a decent price. Otherwise, it is a bit much for a fake or even a decent conversation piece.

Thanks for any help or advice.

[butlersrangers]

'broadway': I believe you are actually asking about what are commonly called 'school rifles', "Model of 1899 carbine altered for knife bayonet and sling". This altered Model 1899 carbine was initially developed for the Philippine Constabulary, but, also was made for Military Schools from 1906 to 1915. These carbines, with 22 inch barrels, were restocked using shortened rifle stocks. The muzzle area was reduced in diameter and resized front barrel-bands were fitted so the Altered Carbines could take a standard Krag bayonet. The rear sight should be a carbine sight.

I believe close to 10,000 altered carbines went to the Philippine Constabulary (probably never to return to the U.S.). About 1,400 similar altered carbines were sold to Military Academies. A small number may have been made with model 1896 and model 1898 marked actions. This is a dangerous arm to collect (Lots of fakes and similar arms made by Bannerman, W. Stokes Kirk, and Bubba). I suspect a correct 'School Rifle' would have a later type of 'Block Letter' rectangular Stock cartouche with J.S.A. (James Sumner Adams) or J.F.C. (J.F. Coyle).

(BTW - "Cadet Model" refers to 404 special Model 1896 Krag Rifles that were built for The U.S. Military Academy at West Point. Around 1900, all but a few were turned into regular Model 1896 Rifles, if I understand correctly).

[broadway]

You caught me before I could change my post. It is indeed the "Carbine altered for bayonet" or "school rifle" I am asking about. I noticed that when I started jotting down notes to bring with to the shop and take a closer look. I wish it were one of these but the date on the receiver precludes that possibility. Otherwise, $695 would probably be a good price for a real one.

Thanks for the advice on the cartouches and the muzzle. I have a follow up question regarding the front sight- was it a band like on the 1903 Springfield or was it attached to the top of the barrel like a normal Krag? I assumed the latter but am now wondering if a banded sight was used instead? As you mention, there are a lot of fakes.

I also remembered I have Canfield's book on U.S. military bolt action rifles. He has a list of the serial numbers of various models and I wonder if there are any known numbers or blocks in which the school rifles came from. I'll have to pick it up before I head to the shop to see if anything pops up.

[butlersrangers]

'broadway': A real 'School Rifle' will have a regular Krag Model 1899 Carbine front-sight installation (No banded-base sights). (W. Stokes Kirk and others used the 1903 Springfield sight to make cut-down non-official 'parts guns' and offered them to schools, academies, and Hunters!).

[broadway]

Thanks for the pictures and ad, they are very interesting. I couldn't open the pictures earlier for some reason but I could now. I really like them, it is a part of American history few know about.

I like the concept of a bayonet for big game hunting as I have had deer run into me a couple of times while chasing them.

Unfortunately, I was too busy trying to dodge them to have used the bayonet- even a fawn can hit one hard enough to leave a lasting and painful bruise! I have also read of grizzlies being killed with swords in "duels" but not with a bayonet. That is well beyond my "sense of adventure" comfort level these days.

I'm waiting for the shop to open, if the gun hasn't sold I'll be able to take a better look. It definitely does not have a banded front sight but the rest I cannot vouch for. It also has an old military sling attached, it is something else which grabbed my interest as it is obviously old.

I did realize that it could be a school rifle as there is a military academy high school and college within a half hour of the shop as well as two others which had been military academies in the past. The one I entered a few years after it dropped the military affiliation and went co-ed to eventually graduate from but had forgotten that part of its history.

The one I went to did not have any firearms that I know ofwhile I was there and had moved twice since it was a full fledged academy with its own range (my father grew up less than a mile from that location) but I guess it could be possible one of the armory guns could have been "liberated" from there (I know of a few things which this occurred from my time there) and has now made its way to the used rack.

It will be a learning experience to look closer at this particular rifle, I just hope not an expensive one if I buy it.

[butlersrangers]

Because the 'carbines altered for bayonet and sling' were assembled with a shortened rifle stock, certain alterations had to be made:
Shortening the stock exposed the forearm lightening channel. This was skillfully filled at Springfield and Rock Island Armories. The front barrel-band was stretched on a mandrel to fit a larger barrel diameter.
The front barrel-band was skillfully fitted to the new forearm tip. The carbine muzzle diameter was reduced to accept a bayonet.
Frank Mallory reports carbines altered for the Philippine Constabulary probably had 1901 carbine rear-sights and 'humped' carbine hand-guards. He expected altered carbines for 'School Rifles' probably had 1902 carbine rear sights.
William Brophy estimated 8,685 Model 1898/1899 carbines were altered for the Philippine Constabulary between 1906 to 1917.
(photo of muzzle area of altered carbine and table showing some of school sales).

p.s. I have always avoided these altered carbines, because: I prefer U.S. Military issued arms, and these are so easy to fake!

[butlersrangers]

Photos: Moro Philippine Constabulary member (1901 sight and 'humped' hand-guard) and Northwestern Military Academy 'cadets', circa 1915, possibly with 'school rifles'.

[Dick Hosmer]

The picture shows a standard Krag upper band. Since the PCR, or school gun, was meant to be used with the 1905 bayonet - which has a different latch mechanism - it is considered more correct for the bayonet lug to be beveled at the front like a 1903.

[broadway]

Shattuck is a school I forgot about and is not all far from the shop. It is probably closer to that shop than my old school. That makes that gun a little more interesting. I wonder if there is a way of determining serial numbers of these guns and where they ended up.

As for my trip, I passed on the rifle for now. They dropped the price down to $600 as part of a two gun deal. I ended up with the other gun, buying a Savage 1899A in 38/55 instead. It is a riddle too.

I passed on the Krag for a few reasons. Starting with the barrel, it appeared to be a carbine barrel based on length and muzzle diameter. The oddities were it having a recessed crown, a 1901 rifle rear sight (at least I was unable to find a "C" on it), and the barrel was mounted on an 1898 receiver. The muzzle had not been turned down, there was no step and it was the same diameter at the muzzle as listed for the carbine. The front sight base was also the height listed for a carbine.

The stock was a cut down rifle stock missing the plug. I don't know how I missed that the first time but I did. The cartouches had J.S.A. On the left side bit it also had the year 1901 stamped below the initials which the school guns weren't supposed to have.

I forgot to look at the sling to see if I could have made out the manufacturer. Some of them have decent collector value and it was not in bad condition. Depending on what that came out as, I might have been wise to go with the two gun offer the shop made. If the sling was worth even $100 and the 1899 was valued at full retail, the two gun price could have got the Krag approaching the $400 mark and that is getting closer to my price for a representative shooter gun. I'll give it another couple weeks and take another look. The Krag has been on the rack less than 2 weeks and the shop may be more willing to deal once more time has passed by. In the meantime, some more info may come my way giving me a better idea on what this gun is.

[broadway]

Thanks for the additional pictures, I didn't notice them at first due to not getting past the listing of schools getting rifles.

I didn't even notice the shape of the bayonet lug, it never crossed my mind. I don't know if Poyer didn't mention it or if I missed that reference but I only learned of it from you. I can say it had the relief cut on the under side to help snug up the top ring to the stock. Dang, too much to learn, not enough brains to remember it all.