Yesterday I showed off my 35/40 sporter to a friend and his son. I had taken it out about a month ago looking for pigs during a full moon. When I brought it in I had left the loaded round in the chamber and safety on. All was good as I opened the side gate and poured out the 3 rounds in the magazine. Took the safety off and opened the bolt and ejected the loaded round, no issues. Here is were things went wrong. I seem to remember pulling the trigger and letting the firing pin down on the empty chamber. I was going to show how the magazine worked and loaded the 4 rounds in the magazine with the bolt closed. Opening the bolt with my friend looking over the shoulder, the first cartridge popped up like normal, I was paying attention to the cartridge feeding while closing the bolt, smooth like it was supposed to be, then bang as the bolt finished closing! The noise of an unexpected accidental discharge in a house is incredible!
Here is where I would advise doing something different that what I did, I wanted to find out why right now! After emptying the magazine and confirming the chamber was clear I cycled the bolt a couple of times< adrenaline kept me from feeling all that was happening. Felt normal each time. My friend pointed out the firing pin was not cocked a couple of those cycles. Intermittent failure, Argh! I cycled it a couple more times and yeah sometimes the pin was in the fired position and sometimes in the cocked position.
Later I tried a couple more times and I think the trigger was fully forward when the bolt closed with the firing pin down. Not 100% sure as I was still rattled. Now the failure will not repeat! I know it is not fixed and it will happen again if not addressed. In email with Butlersrangers and Whig a couple of possible causes were mentioned. I will ask them to hold those thoughts till others get to tell if they have had something similar happen with a cause and repair.
Accidental discharge!
Re: Accidental discharge!
I was getting near my 2000 character limit so more info.
This is my sporter with the shop made trigger and unmodified sear and original spring( not modified by me anyway). Mentioned with photos in this thread:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1576078910
Some of the build is documented here:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1450216996
Checking with things later when I was not as rattled, I found I could pull the trigger till the first stage easy pull was complete and up against the 2nd stage releasing the trigger it did not return to the forward position. Lack of lube, weak spring or normal? What say you Krag experts? Pulling the knob back or putting it on safety did allow the trigger to return forward. In the other thread it was mentioned that bolt lift could cause an unintended discharge with a defective or modified trigger sear assembly. So I lifted on the bolt and sleeve with the trigger pulled to the end of the first stage, it did not discharge.
Right now I am questioning whether I lubed the knuckle on the sear or anything else in the trigger assembly. The sporterizing project took a couple of years with hundreds of assemblies and dis-assemblies. Not sure now on that final time.
Right now the trigger at rest is centered in the trigger guard opening with easy play from side to side, not sure if the sear also has side to side play.
I put the rifle aside cocked and on safety and intend to let it sit for a couple of days to see if the failure will repeat.
Sure wish I had put it down then and analyzed it when I was not rattled. I might already have a cause and be fixing it. Right now I do not want to take it apart and do something that almost cures it then I fails again in 1000 cycles.
The Krag trigger assembly is robust and should be problem free, so this is not a normal problem. If others have had similar problems and found a cure, we need to hear it for everyone's benefit.
This is my sporter with the shop made trigger and unmodified sear and original spring( not modified by me anyway). Mentioned with photos in this thread:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1576078910
Some of the build is documented here:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1450216996
Checking with things later when I was not as rattled, I found I could pull the trigger till the first stage easy pull was complete and up against the 2nd stage releasing the trigger it did not return to the forward position. Lack of lube, weak spring or normal? What say you Krag experts? Pulling the knob back or putting it on safety did allow the trigger to return forward. In the other thread it was mentioned that bolt lift could cause an unintended discharge with a defective or modified trigger sear assembly. So I lifted on the bolt and sleeve with the trigger pulled to the end of the first stage, it did not discharge.
Right now I am questioning whether I lubed the knuckle on the sear or anything else in the trigger assembly. The sporterizing project took a couple of years with hundreds of assemblies and dis-assemblies. Not sure now on that final time.
Right now the trigger at rest is centered in the trigger guard opening with easy play from side to side, not sure if the sear also has side to side play.
I put the rifle aside cocked and on safety and intend to let it sit for a couple of days to see if the failure will repeat.
Sure wish I had put it down then and analyzed it when I was not rattled. I might already have a cause and be fixing it. Right now I do not want to take it apart and do something that almost cures it then I fails again in 1000 cycles.
The Krag trigger assembly is robust and should be problem free, so this is not a normal problem. If others have had similar problems and found a cure, we need to hear it for everyone's benefit.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9904
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Accidental discharge!
I have communicated with 'FredC', in a couple of emails in the last 24 hours.
I have not experienced an 'accidental discharge', or unexpected firing-pin mechanism release, with a Krag.
BTW - All the Krags I have owned or tinkered with were in original (or the remains of) military Stocks.
FWIW - I suspect the 'wood-inletting', of Fred's Aftermarket-Stock, may be interfering with the free movement of his trigger-sear mechanism. (This might be influenced by variations in humidity causing wood-swelling and changes).
The front, rear, and side area of the trigger/sear mechanism AND THE Trigger-PIN, that holds them together, must be free of wood interference.
At Springfield Armory, the Trigger-Sear Pin, was tapered and 'Upset' in place, so it could not move side-ways.
I appreciate 'FredC' making this malfunction known on the KCA. I am very glad no one was injured.
I wait with great interest to see what he and others conclude.
I have not experienced an 'accidental discharge', or unexpected firing-pin mechanism release, with a Krag.
BTW - All the Krags I have owned or tinkered with were in original (or the remains of) military Stocks.
FWIW - I suspect the 'wood-inletting', of Fred's Aftermarket-Stock, may be interfering with the free movement of his trigger-sear mechanism. (This might be influenced by variations in humidity causing wood-swelling and changes).
The front, rear, and side area of the trigger/sear mechanism AND THE Trigger-PIN, that holds them together, must be free of wood interference.
At Springfield Armory, the Trigger-Sear Pin, was tapered and 'Upset' in place, so it could not move side-ways.
I appreciate 'FredC' making this malfunction known on the KCA. I am very glad no one was injured.
I wait with great interest to see what he and others conclude.
Re: Accidental discharge!
More info:
Attached is photo of my wall from inside the house. Wall here is cinder block and filled with concrete under the window. 5/8 sheet rock over 3/4 inch stryofoam, over 3/4 hat channels (airspace).The bullet did not exit to the outside. I still have discomfort in the ears, the level of my tinnitus is actually lower right now.
Attached also are some illustrations kindly provided by Butlersrangers. We have been calling the pivot in the sear a knuckle, which is fairly descriptive (SA calls it a hinge). What I have been calling first and final stage cams are referred to in the drawings as bearings and heel, not very descriptive to me. To me the sear is the actual area that slide past each other to release the trigger with the cocking piece having 1/2 as well as the surface on what Springfield Amory calls the sear. Maybe the definition has changed or I have been wrong all along.
Any comments on what we call these things will be taken into consideration.
The design of Krag trigger are normally trouble free and as mentioned by 2 members here, they have not had an accidental discharge with their Krags.
I hope the discussion helps all to remember safety. I can think moving through heavy brush one could possibly get twigs or debris in the trigger/trigger guard. We have at least 2 insects here that like to fill openings. The end of a barrel or the trigger guard opening would make a fine nesting spot for either one.
Again, comments, suggestions, and advice are welcome.
Attached is photo of my wall from inside the house. Wall here is cinder block and filled with concrete under the window. 5/8 sheet rock over 3/4 inch stryofoam, over 3/4 hat channels (airspace).The bullet did not exit to the outside. I still have discomfort in the ears, the level of my tinnitus is actually lower right now.
Attached also are some illustrations kindly provided by Butlersrangers. We have been calling the pivot in the sear a knuckle, which is fairly descriptive (SA calls it a hinge). What I have been calling first and final stage cams are referred to in the drawings as bearings and heel, not very descriptive to me. To me the sear is the actual area that slide past each other to release the trigger with the cocking piece having 1/2 as well as the surface on what Springfield Amory calls the sear. Maybe the definition has changed or I have been wrong all along.
Any comments on what we call these things will be taken into consideration.
The design of Krag trigger are normally trouble free and as mentioned by 2 members here, they have not had an accidental discharge with their Krags.
I hope the discussion helps all to remember safety. I can think moving through heavy brush one could possibly get twigs or debris in the trigger/trigger guard. We have at least 2 insects here that like to fill openings. The end of a barrel or the trigger guard opening would make a fine nesting spot for either one.
Again, comments, suggestions, and advice are welcome.
Re: Accidental discharge!
I have expressed my appreciation to Fred for sharing this accidental discharge with us at KCA. This topic can be appreciated at any blog regarding firearms.
The main thing is that Fred and his guests are OK. Except for the hearing effects, no loss of limb or life. It wouldn't take much to have been worse. Please, do not put live rounds in a firearm inside unless you are loading for self defense. I even have taken the firing pin (striker) out of my bolt to allow me to cycle live rounds through my Krags to test them and adjust them. The second thing is, of course, watch where the muzzle is pointed, even when you think it is unloaded. What's the warning: Always assume every firearm is always loaded and treat it as such!
Butlers is in a better position than I am to evaluate the exact mechanism(s) that might have caused this A.D. I told Fred that I have never tried to alter my Krag triggers or sears other than polishing them and removing burrs for smoother function. Trying creative gun smithing to lower the trigger pull or make the trigger a one stage pull-through may not be in everyone's best interest.
I have some different recommendations that may be important to consider.
Any KCA (or other site) postings to alter the trigger should be regarded as thought-provoking but not an actual recommendation since it could be dangerous and result in damage or death. That could also easily be said for load recommendations or powder changes with reloading.
Always check any load recommendation against printed reloading manuals before actually reloading. This is a typical warning seen many times on other sites. How easy it is to make a typing error and not proofread to correct that might cause someone inexperienced to make a deadly mistake.
Permanent hearing loss can definitely occur as a result of even one unprotected discharge in an inclosed space such as happened to Fred. We are all getting older and have normal aging loss of hearing and hereditary difficulties. (cont)
The main thing is that Fred and his guests are OK. Except for the hearing effects, no loss of limb or life. It wouldn't take much to have been worse. Please, do not put live rounds in a firearm inside unless you are loading for self defense. I even have taken the firing pin (striker) out of my bolt to allow me to cycle live rounds through my Krags to test them and adjust them. The second thing is, of course, watch where the muzzle is pointed, even when you think it is unloaded. What's the warning: Always assume every firearm is always loaded and treat it as such!
Butlers is in a better position than I am to evaluate the exact mechanism(s) that might have caused this A.D. I told Fred that I have never tried to alter my Krag triggers or sears other than polishing them and removing burrs for smoother function. Trying creative gun smithing to lower the trigger pull or make the trigger a one stage pull-through may not be in everyone's best interest.
I have some different recommendations that may be important to consider.
Any KCA (or other site) postings to alter the trigger should be regarded as thought-provoking but not an actual recommendation since it could be dangerous and result in damage or death. That could also easily be said for load recommendations or powder changes with reloading.
Always check any load recommendation against printed reloading manuals before actually reloading. This is a typical warning seen many times on other sites. How easy it is to make a typing error and not proofread to correct that might cause someone inexperienced to make a deadly mistake.
Permanent hearing loss can definitely occur as a result of even one unprotected discharge in an inclosed space such as happened to Fred. We are all getting older and have normal aging loss of hearing and hereditary difficulties. (cont)
Re: Accidental discharge!
Even small explosions can cause ongoing hearing loss because it adds up over time. Tinnitus is a sign of high frequency hearing loss. I have it and I have learned to just block it out.
I always dis-assemble my Krags and check them out from the inside out. I have found more than one to have caked-up and dried oil deposits with 100+ years of crud developed in and around the trigger and sear. Sometimes this stuff is like creosote. It needs to be sprayed with oil, scrubbed with a toothbrush or wiped out and re-lubricated before it can function smoothly again. This could have been part of Fred's problem also.
So, Fred has brought this to the forefront for all of us to learn from. We are glad he was not injured. We may not ever learn the exact reason as to what happened but it's a great discussion.
Hope the hearing comes back quickly, Fred!
I always dis-assemble my Krags and check them out from the inside out. I have found more than one to have caked-up and dried oil deposits with 100+ years of crud developed in and around the trigger and sear. Sometimes this stuff is like creosote. It needs to be sprayed with oil, scrubbed with a toothbrush or wiped out and re-lubricated before it can function smoothly again. This could have been part of Fred's problem also.
So, Fred has brought this to the forefront for all of us to learn from. We are glad he was not injured. We may not ever learn the exact reason as to what happened but it's a great discussion.
Hope the hearing comes back quickly, Fred!
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9904
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Accidental discharge!
'FredC' - Thank You; I have made a copy of your 'pencil photo' and will hang it in my work area as a reminder to always be careful.
Now some gallows humor:
What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!
BTW - I rather be in the "Mile High Club" than in your "Hole in the Wall Gang)!
There, got it out of my system ... Now back to Fred's very serious thread.
Attached is a photo of the replacement trigger, that Fred made, years ago.
'Wood interference' could put friction and cause 'hang ups' on any of the side-surfaces of the trigger or sear.
Also, rubbing and friction with the trigger-guard opening could cause mischief, especially if the metal Guard is slightly 'canted'.
I have put arrows at front & rear trigger/sear areas that might get unwanted contact.
IF the Trigger-Pin is Free to Drift, side to side, it could 'hang up' the mechanism.
Now some gallows humor:
What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!
BTW - I rather be in the "Mile High Club" than in your "Hole in the Wall Gang)!
There, got it out of my system ... Now back to Fred's very serious thread.
Attached is a photo of the replacement trigger, that Fred made, years ago.
'Wood interference' could put friction and cause 'hang ups' on any of the side-surfaces of the trigger or sear.
Also, rubbing and friction with the trigger-guard opening could cause mischief, especially if the metal Guard is slightly 'canted'.
I have put arrows at front & rear trigger/sear areas that might get unwanted contact.
IF the Trigger-Pin is Free to Drift, side to side, it could 'hang up' the mechanism.
Re: Accidental discharge!
Receiver had been thoroughly cleaned during sporterizing, maybe too clean will go back in in a couple of days and look along side the sear for clearance and any lubrication. Good point on older Krags that have been out of service for 40 years is to check the sear hole for the spring and hinge for hard gunk.
While we are waiting are your trigger springs strong enough to return a partially pulled trigger back to full forward? Mine does not, will check for lube on the sear surfaces. I did not modify this spring for less pull, that does not mean that a previous owner did not modify it.
I do not have enough parts to test things like this on the barreled receiver I just purchased from Whig. This is the main reason I got it is for tests and measurements.
Additional, the pin was tight and flush on both sides when installed. Could see where a loose pin could cause a disaster.
Butlersrangers, if you want the pencil photo in higher resolution I can email it to you. Pencil was never sharpened, brand new full length.
For inquiring minds 43 grains of Varget with a 200 grain jacketed round nose, 47.? was determined to be max by Quickload.
I do not have enough parts to test things like this on the barreled receiver I just purchased from Whig. This is the main reason I got it is for tests and measurements.
Additional, the pin was tight and flush on both sides when installed. Could see where a loose pin could cause a disaster.
Butlersrangers, if you want the pencil photo in higher resolution I can email it to you. Pencil was never sharpened, brand new full length.
For inquiring minds 43 grains of Varget with a 200 grain jacketed round nose, 47.? was determined to be max by Quickload.
Re: Accidental discharge!
Hi FredC,
I'm guessing you've already tried to cycle the action and observe functionality with the stock removed???
Is it still possible to remove/replace your modified trigger with a an original Krag trigger???
Thinking maybe you can rule-out your modified trigger if you reproduce the same results with an original Krag trigger...minus the bang!
BTW: I have a Panasonic Auto-Stop pencil sharpener (Model KP-380) that puts an excellent spitzer like tip, on any pencil, for smoother flight, deeper penetration and uniform lead expansion! :D
I'm guessing you've already tried to cycle the action and observe functionality with the stock removed???
Is it still possible to remove/replace your modified trigger with a an original Krag trigger???
Thinking maybe you can rule-out your modified trigger if you reproduce the same results with an original Krag trigger...minus the bang!
BTW: I have a Panasonic Auto-Stop pencil sharpener (Model KP-380) that puts an excellent spitzer like tip, on any pencil, for smoother flight, deeper penetration and uniform lead expansion! :D
Re: Accidental discharge!
LocalBoy,
I wanted to see the problem again before disturbing things. So right now the sporter is sitting with the safety on to try and replicate the first incident. In a day or so I will do it again, with an empty chamber this time. If it does not repeat the fault I will start taking it apart for analysis.
Just to be clear the pencil was stuck in the hole afterwards to show it up. Did not try spinning the pencil to see if the hat channels in the wall would act as a sharpener. Now you have given me a reason not plug the hole. :-)
Some days I am just slow. I finally caught on the question:
What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!
Pencil was powered by the little finger with miniscule effort. :-) Not sure if I found the bottom of the hole, did not do any probing there. The cinder blocks under the window had the cores filled with concrete, seems like the 200 grain traveling at close to 2300FPS should have penetrated deeper. I doubt the pencil is touching the slug. Pencil was made in the USA, I bought a couple cases 30 years ago so as to not have to put up with foreign junk, still have about half of them.
I wanted to see the problem again before disturbing things. So right now the sporter is sitting with the safety on to try and replicate the first incident. In a day or so I will do it again, with an empty chamber this time. If it does not repeat the fault I will start taking it apart for analysis.
Just to be clear the pencil was stuck in the hole afterwards to show it up. Did not try spinning the pencil to see if the hat channels in the wall would act as a sharpener. Now you have given me a reason not plug the hole. :-)
Some days I am just slow. I finally caught on the question:
What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!
Pencil was powered by the little finger with miniscule effort. :-) Not sure if I found the bottom of the hole, did not do any probing there. The cinder blocks under the window had the cores filled with concrete, seems like the 200 grain traveling at close to 2300FPS should have penetrated deeper. I doubt the pencil is touching the slug. Pencil was made in the USA, I bought a couple cases 30 years ago so as to not have to put up with foreign junk, still have about half of them.