Hello,
While examining new .30-40 brass, fired once, I'm noticing a very small expansion just above the brass rim (I am beginning to get involved with reloading the .30-40). The rifle (US Krag) has been thoroughly checked for head-space. All checked 'good' (no go, go and field). I installed a different NOS bolt assembly, checked the head-space, all good. I then fired more new factory Remington rounds. The ever so slight expansion /bulge is still evident, no better, no worse. A Gunsmith said that with the US Krags, the extractor holds the cartridge firmly to the top of the chamber and that this little bit of expansion on fired cartridges is OK. Can somebody PLEASE shed some WISDOM regarding this? All-in-all, the rifle shoots fine. Very clean chamber, lands and groves perfect. I just want to be safe. I need another opinion Please. Thanks!
.30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
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Browning A5
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- Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:56 pm
.30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Respectfully,
Rich
Rich
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psteinmayer
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Howdy!
Welcome to the forum, and to the wonderful world of Krags! Careful, they're addicting!
If possible, can you post a close up image of the cases? If what I suspect is happening is the case, then yes, it's normal. When fired, the brass will form to the chamber, and Krags will leave the brass looking worn on the case up to about 3/16 from the rim, which sometimes looks slightly buldged. This is one of the reasons we say to neck-size Krag brass only, keeping the brass gun-specific (keep the brass with the gun/don't neck size and use in another rifle). This will save on brass wear since the brass is fire-formed to the chamber and will expand very little beyond that. Of course, you should always inspect the cases carefully, and if you have thinning brass in the base/head area, you'll know it. My brass seems to crack in the shoulder or neck as it ages, and I retire any brass with cracks beyond the lip of the neck. Of course, I have 20+ loadings on some my brass too...
Hope this helps
Paul
Welcome to the forum, and to the wonderful world of Krags! Careful, they're addicting!
If possible, can you post a close up image of the cases? If what I suspect is happening is the case, then yes, it's normal. When fired, the brass will form to the chamber, and Krags will leave the brass looking worn on the case up to about 3/16 from the rim, which sometimes looks slightly buldged. This is one of the reasons we say to neck-size Krag brass only, keeping the brass gun-specific (keep the brass with the gun/don't neck size and use in another rifle). This will save on brass wear since the brass is fire-formed to the chamber and will expand very little beyond that. Of course, you should always inspect the cases carefully, and if you have thinning brass in the base/head area, you'll know it. My brass seems to crack in the shoulder or neck as it ages, and I retire any brass with cracks beyond the lip of the neck. Of course, I have 20+ loadings on some my brass too...
Hope this helps
Paul
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
I am not an expert on all things Krag, but I removed an old barrel from a sporter and was surprised how much larger the chamber was compared to unfired ammo. Over .010 in this case. I had thought the soft steel barrel had stretched with many shots fired. Others on this forum said that was normal.
In the old days before good high speed steel was available for reamers they used carbon tool steels. The reamers were originally made very large then got smaller as they were resharpened during their life. So the resulting chambers could be large or small depending on when in the life of the reamer an individual barrel was made.
Now to your cases, is the bulge all in one spot or does bulge appear smooth all the way to the neck? Is it concentric all the way around the case? Is it just on the ejector side of the chamber? If it is just one side you will be able to feel it by spinning the case in your fingers.
If it is just on one side of the chamber I would be concerned till I figured out why. A severe overload could conceivably bulge just the extractor side. Water or another corrosive could have been allowed to sit on one side, and be later "polished" out.
Reloading will be in your future if you continue to shoot a Krag, if the chamber is just one of the larger ones, neck sizing the brass will keep from over working the brass near the rim. Minimal sizing could work with just a bulge on one side, this would allow the cases to chamber if the bulge was not lined up with the large side of the chamber.
Photos could help if the bulge is visible, or outline the bulge with a marker if it is not.
In the old days before good high speed steel was available for reamers they used carbon tool steels. The reamers were originally made very large then got smaller as they were resharpened during their life. So the resulting chambers could be large or small depending on when in the life of the reamer an individual barrel was made.
Now to your cases, is the bulge all in one spot or does bulge appear smooth all the way to the neck? Is it concentric all the way around the case? Is it just on the ejector side of the chamber? If it is just one side you will be able to feel it by spinning the case in your fingers.
If it is just on one side of the chamber I would be concerned till I figured out why. A severe overload could conceivably bulge just the extractor side. Water or another corrosive could have been allowed to sit on one side, and be later "polished" out.
Reloading will be in your future if you continue to shoot a Krag, if the chamber is just one of the larger ones, neck sizing the brass will keep from over working the brass near the rim. Minimal sizing could work with just a bulge on one side, this would allow the cases to chamber if the bulge was not lined up with the large side of the chamber.
Photos could help if the bulge is visible, or outline the bulge with a marker if it is not.
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Browning A5
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- Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:56 pm
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Good morning FredC and psteinmayer,
Thank you both for helping me. I will take some pics once I get home today. The somewhat bulge is faint, although there. It is just above the rim. The web/neck and case body is intact without markings. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help. Please examine the pics once posted. I am using a Lee Hand-loader that does not 'reform' the bottom/rim area, just the top where the bullet seats. I am just concerned that I don't hurt myself or anyone else. I hope that I'm making a big deal over nothing.
Thank you both for helping me. I will take some pics once I get home today. The somewhat bulge is faint, although there. It is just above the rim. The web/neck and case body is intact without markings. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help. Please examine the pics once posted. I am using a Lee Hand-loader that does not 'reform' the bottom/rim area, just the top where the bullet seats. I am just concerned that I don't hurt myself or anyone else. I hope that I'm making a big deal over nothing.
Respectfully,
Rich
Rich
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psteinmayer
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 am
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
I used a LEE handloader for the first couple years I reloaded for 30-40. A fine tool to get started with!
I suspect that it will be fine... but just the same... better safe than sorry. We'll take a look and let you know.
I suspect that it will be fine... but just the same... better safe than sorry. We'll take a look and let you know.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9880
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Browning A5 - The Web or Head area (rim & primer pocket area) of most cartridge cases is solid brass and does not expand much.
The case wall is drawn and formed during the manufacturing process and is relatively thin. The case wall is intended to expand and seal against the chamber wall. It springs back somewhat, when pressure decreases after firing.
What you are probably noticing is the 'joint' between the expanded wall and solid head. As others have stated, this is normal and not usually a problem.
FWIW: I have had a couple of complete head separations in a .303 British rifle and a couple of partial head separations with old .30-40 brass.
With these cartridges, because of the seal of the cartridge rim, all high pressure gas remained in the chamber and barrel.
I would not worry too much and pictures would allow better assessment.
The case wall is drawn and formed during the manufacturing process and is relatively thin. The case wall is intended to expand and seal against the chamber wall. It springs back somewhat, when pressure decreases after firing.
What you are probably noticing is the 'joint' between the expanded wall and solid head. As others have stated, this is normal and not usually a problem.
FWIW: I have had a couple of complete head separations in a .303 British rifle and a couple of partial head separations with old .30-40 brass.
With these cartridges, because of the seal of the cartridge rim, all high pressure gas remained in the chamber and barrel.
I would not worry too much and pictures would allow better assessment.
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Browning A5
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:56 pm
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Good morning Krag Gurus',
I was not able to take pictures yesterday. I will take them later today. You guys are very good to help me. Much appreciated, thank You All.
PS; I have questions regarding the Krag and reloading. I will wait to ask those questions until after I get the pictures posted.
Respectfully,
Richard Guy
I was not able to take pictures yesterday. I will take them later today. You guys are very good to help me. Much appreciated, thank You All.
PS; I have questions regarding the Krag and reloading. I will wait to ask those questions until after I get the pictures posted.
Respectfully,
Richard Guy
Respectfully,
Rich
Rich
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
BR's photo well illustrates what happens to a Krag case when fired. The shiny area not only expands till it contacts the chamber but it also slides rearward a few thousands till it is stopped by the bolt. You will see this on just about any bottle neck case no matter what caliber. I think I have attached a photo of a cut away case to show why the end of the case can not expand.
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Browning A5
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:56 pm
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
Good morning fellow Kragorians,
I hope I posted the pics correctly, I didn't grow up with computers. I signed up for Photobucket and posted them there. I think I followed the instructions properly for posting pics on this forum, please advise if I'm missing a step.
Anyway, these 5 pictures are of the same .30-40 Krag Bullet, once fired, reloaded with my LEE .30-40 KRAG Hand Loader.
Respectfully,
Richard Guy
I hope I posted the pics correctly, I didn't grow up with computers. I signed up for Photobucket and posted them there. I think I followed the instructions properly for posting pics on this forum, please advise if I'm missing a step.
Anyway, these 5 pictures are of the same .30-40 Krag Bullet, once fired, reloaded with my LEE .30-40 KRAG Hand Loader.
Respectfully,
Richard Guy
Respectfully,
Rich
Rich
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9880
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: .30-40 brass above the rim slightly expanded/bulge
"Browning A5" - I personally don't care much for 'photo-bucket' attachments. They are clumsy to look at - IMHO. (I have taken the liberty copying and attaching two of your photos).
Your fired .30-40 cases look relatively normal. Maybe a bit 'off'. (I don't know if it is an illusion from Lighting or your chamber is a little sloppy or 'crooked').
Lifespan of your Brass will tell the real story. I would not be too worried.
(p.s. When making a post on the KCA Forum, if you have stored pictures on your hard-drive as pictures or documents, the 'Browse' Button at the bottom of the 'reply' page will allow you to search your pictures and attach one. The 'Attachments - down arrow' adds additional 'Browse windows'. Actually pretty convenient).
Your fired .30-40 cases look relatively normal. Maybe a bit 'off'. (I don't know if it is an illusion from Lighting or your chamber is a little sloppy or 'crooked').
Lifespan of your Brass will tell the real story. I would not be too worried.
(p.s. When making a post on the KCA Forum, if you have stored pictures on your hard-drive as pictures or documents, the 'Browse' Button at the bottom of the 'reply' page will allow you to search your pictures and attach one. The 'Attachments - down arrow' adds additional 'Browse windows'. Actually pretty convenient).