Ten + years ago, I spent a lot of time and a few hundred $$ looking for a Lee Navy rifle in collectible condition. Then one guy was reportedly killed when shooting one (firing pin blew out the back of the bolt & entered shooter's head) and I rapidly lost interest.
Shortly after that, I read that the USMC came up with an in-service fix to remedy that problem. Apparently some rifles have the fix but most do not. Fix is a wide external band on the outside of the rear of the bolt. Does anyone know any of the USMC/USN details?
1895 Lee Navy
Re: 1895 Lee Navy
Hmmmm. I have never heard of the mod to which you refer. Could it be a difference in the bolt stop? Something akin to the change in the Krag cutoff change where the bolt stop needs to be in a certain position to remove the bolt. I have LNs from the first contract and the second contract. However I am three months away from them to check if there is any difference in the stops.
There has been a couple of thoughts on what killed Sarco's DeRuitter. One was a double charge of fast powder and the other was reformed Krag brass. A bolt stop in the wrong position could be bad juju.
Let me know if you ever want to give the LN a new home.
There has been a couple of thoughts on what killed Sarco's DeRuitter. One was a double charge of fast powder and the other was reformed Krag brass. A bolt stop in the wrong position could be bad juju.
Let me know if you ever want to give the LN a new home.
Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). Liberty Works Radio
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
I had also heard about re-formed Krag brass being involved. That makes no sense to me. Quite good LN ammo can be made from .220 Swift brass by turning off the rim flush with the base and expanding the neck. Or get a set of case forming dies and use NEW .30-06 brass. Need a sturdy press for that.
Looking at the LN bolt from the back, with the bolt in place and in firing position, on an unmodified bolt, the end of the firing pin assembly is easily seen. The mod is a heavyish piece of sheet metal that is somehow fastened to the back of the bolt. Maybe with screws? Or maybe fits into grooves cut into the bolt. The metal piece is blued. If there were some sort of case failure with hot gas, the mod should deflect the gas and retain a broken striker.
IIRC, the bolt stop & release is just a plunger on the left side, at the rear of the action. Push it down & pull out the bolt.
Looking at the LN bolt from the back, with the bolt in place and in firing position, on an unmodified bolt, the end of the firing pin assembly is easily seen. The mod is a heavyish piece of sheet metal that is somehow fastened to the back of the bolt. Maybe with screws? Or maybe fits into grooves cut into the bolt. The metal piece is blued. If there were some sort of case failure with hot gas, the mod should deflect the gas and retain a broken striker.
IIRC, the bolt stop & release is just a plunger on the left side, at the rear of the action. Push it down & pull out the bolt.
Re: 1895 Lee Navy
There was that gentleman over on Jouster who blew up a LN using reformed krag brass but I don't have the particulars at the moment.
I bought a run of "LN ammo" from Buffalo Arms that was reformed from virgin 25-06 cases. The first batch had neck splits even before I fired them and the second batch, purchased two years later, did not have any splitting issues. Would 30-06 give a longer neck than 25-06 when it is sized downard?
I will keep an eye out for pictures of the different bolts. Just not familiar enough with it.
Geez. I wish I had access to the rifles so I could know for sure. Do you have the various pamphlets and manuals for the LN?
I bought a run of "LN ammo" from Buffalo Arms that was reformed from virgin 25-06 cases. The first batch had neck splits even before I fired them and the second batch, purchased two years later, did not have any splitting issues. Would 30-06 give a longer neck than 25-06 when it is sized downard?
I will keep an eye out for pictures of the different bolts. Just not familiar enough with it.
Geez. I wish I had access to the rifles so I could know for sure. Do you have the various pamphlets and manuals for the LN?
Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). Liberty Works Radio
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
The Changes and Alterations to the Winchester-Lee Rifle were many and eventually involved: the bolt, bolt-stop, firing-pin, safety, and extractor.
Author, Eugene Myszkowski, in his work, "The Winchester-Lee", does a noble job of documenting, explaining, and attempting to illustrate these subtle part differences and evolution. (Still, it is somewhat confusing to me).
IMHO - Myszkowski's works on the Winchester-Lee and Remington-Lee should be in every Krag enthusiast's library. The price of the paper-bound Excalibur Publications is reasonable.
The re-print of the Navy 'ordnance manual' is also fun to have.
As a young collector, I once owned a commercial Winchester-Lee sporting rifle that I bought for $25 from a 'bubba' in Northern Michigan.
I was able to undo most of the stove paint and wood damage 're-finish' that was done to it. However, at $1.00 a round (for original ammo in the late 1960's), I never got to shoot it. It was certainly too advanced a re-loading project for me at that time.
Even in my youth, I realized there were many 'weak' aspects to the Lee Straight-Pull design and parts.
Author, Eugene Myszkowski, in his work, "The Winchester-Lee", does a noble job of documenting, explaining, and attempting to illustrate these subtle part differences and evolution. (Still, it is somewhat confusing to me).
IMHO - Myszkowski's works on the Winchester-Lee and Remington-Lee should be in every Krag enthusiast's library. The price of the paper-bound Excalibur Publications is reasonable.
The re-print of the Navy 'ordnance manual' is also fun to have.
As a young collector, I once owned a commercial Winchester-Lee sporting rifle that I bought for $25 from a 'bubba' in Northern Michigan.
I was able to undo most of the stove paint and wood damage 're-finish' that was done to it. However, at $1.00 a round (for original ammo in the late 1960's), I never got to shoot it. It was certainly too advanced a re-loading project for me at that time.
Even in my youth, I realized there were many 'weak' aspects to the Lee Straight-Pull design and parts.
Re: 1895 Lee Navy
Do you have a link for Mr. Myszkowski's book? I need to pick up a copy.
You can go to Forgotten Weapons and download a copy of the Ordnance manual and my copy of the commerical pamplet.
Ol' Don Quixote doesn't have anything on me. The Win LN is my windmill. I shot Krag 112 at Perry but what I really want is to do is shoot the LN and the other 1895 there.
You can go to Forgotten Weapons and download a copy of the Ordnance manual and my copy of the commerical pamplet.
Ol' Don Quixote doesn't have anything on me. The Win LN is my windmill. I shot Krag 112 at Perry but what I really want is to do is shoot the LN and the other 1895 there.
Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag. Member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). Liberty Works Radio
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
Whoops - I guess these are rare books now!
Amazon is pricing Myszkowski's "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" at $713.52 and "The Remington-Lee Rifle" at $1,200.04. (Pretty good return on my $22.95 investments)!
I am no good at posting 'Links', but, I believe if you 'google' - militarybooks@earthlink.net - you may find used copies of the Myszkowski works for around $35.
(or, I will sell you my pair for an even $1,000) 8-) Good Luck!
p.s. There is a used copy on ebay - Buy Now $39.95.
Amazon is pricing Myszkowski's "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" at $713.52 and "The Remington-Lee Rifle" at $1,200.04. (Pretty good return on my $22.95 investments)!
I am no good at posting 'Links', but, I believe if you 'google' - militarybooks@earthlink.net - you may find used copies of the Myszkowski works for around $35.
(or, I will sell you my pair for an even $1,000) 8-) Good Luck!
p.s. There is a used copy on ebay - Buy Now $39.95.
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Onlinebutlersrangers
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
Blown Lee pictures:
IIRC - the reloaded cartridge cases were formed from .30-40 brass. The rim was machined off and a deep extractor groove was machined into the case.
In my opinion, this potentially left the brass 'paper thin' in the web area of some altered cases. Catastrophic Case Failure likely allowed huge gas pressure to tear apart this Winchester-Lee. The bolt and firing-pin remained in place in this incident.
The 'Shooter/Owner' thankfully survived the episode with facial lacerations and black-eyes. He knowledgably reported, photographed, and documented his accident. He posted his experience on another forum. He generously gave permission to post his photos on the KCA forum a few years back.
The pictures generate many different opinions as to the cause of the rifle's failure and destruction.
IIRC - the reloaded cartridge cases were formed from .30-40 brass. The rim was machined off and a deep extractor groove was machined into the case.
In my opinion, this potentially left the brass 'paper thin' in the web area of some altered cases. Catastrophic Case Failure likely allowed huge gas pressure to tear apart this Winchester-Lee. The bolt and firing-pin remained in place in this incident.
The 'Shooter/Owner' thankfully survived the episode with facial lacerations and black-eyes. He knowledgably reported, photographed, and documented his accident. He posted his experience on another forum. He generously gave permission to post his photos on the KCA forum a few years back.
The pictures generate many different opinions as to the cause of the rifle's failure and destruction.
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
Wow! Nowadays, Lee Navy rifles are expensive. Makes me curious about the details of that disaster. Good thing the guy survived.
I searched the Internet for the $23 paperback, which I should have bought during my initial search. Instead, I found this:
https://winchestercollector.org/models/model-1895-lee/
Military pattern rifles were produced throughout the civilian range of 10000 to 15000. The earliest production rifles conformed to first contract US Navy specifications. Most, however, had the latest Navy improvements: a gas shield machined as part of the bolt rather than pinned and brazed on, a sighting groove in top of bolt, a low bolt stop, a roller firing pin lock and sometimes a hardened screw on the side of the receiver for the Navy extractor to contact.
The later production rifles reflect the improvements Winchester implemented in response to problems of extraction and gas leakage. A number of rifles, both military pattern and sporting, were noted as A model. This referred to the front-mounted short extractor spring, bolt with two gas holes on top, floating firing pin, and gas vent on the left side of the receiver. Some rifles are recorded as Style A Except Extractor & Spring last Navy style.
I searched the Internet for the $23 paperback, which I should have bought during my initial search. Instead, I found this:
https://winchestercollector.org/models/model-1895-lee/
Military pattern rifles were produced throughout the civilian range of 10000 to 15000. The earliest production rifles conformed to first contract US Navy specifications. Most, however, had the latest Navy improvements: a gas shield machined as part of the bolt rather than pinned and brazed on, a sighting groove in top of bolt, a low bolt stop, a roller firing pin lock and sometimes a hardened screw on the side of the receiver for the Navy extractor to contact.
The later production rifles reflect the improvements Winchester implemented in response to problems of extraction and gas leakage. A number of rifles, both military pattern and sporting, were noted as A model. This referred to the front-mounted short extractor spring, bolt with two gas holes on top, floating firing pin, and gas vent on the left side of the receiver. Some rifles are recorded as Style A Except Extractor & Spring last Navy style.
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Re: 1895 Lee Navy
The article on Lee Navy rifles from the Winchester Collectors site mentions rifles marked USNM with a separate SN, not the Winchester-assigned SN. The writer of the article wrote that he did not know what "USNM" meant, thought that it was US Naval Militia. I do not think this is correct. My thought is that USNM means United States Navy Magazine, a name used from at least Sp-AM War days up to the present. Almost all such places had small arms in storage and often had repair capabilities. Why some were called Naval Magazines and others Naval Ammunition Depots is a mystery to me. I was stationed at NAD West Loch (HI) and Charleston (SC) and at Naval Magazine Guam and never observed any difference in operating procedures.