Krag Collectors Association Forum

I have a photo of a USNM rifle. Somewhere. It shows the USNM number in the normal place and then it shows a winchester number on the right side rail of the receiver.

Just gotta find it. Could be on a destroyed external hard drive.

Found it. As you can see there is a Winchester serial number on the rifle. Memory did not fail me this time.

The only question regarding the Naval Militias is which one of them purchased the rifles. Perhaps the Cody Museum has theWinchester records.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_militia

http://navalmilitia.ohio.gov/history.stm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Naval_Militia

Per Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester-Lee Rifle", page 88 - Appendix:

"US Naval Militia Purchase

Same specifications as first contract.

Identifying Characteristics:
Hardened screw in side of receiver.
Low bolt stop and firing pin lock.
Gas shield machined as part of bolt.
Sighting groove in top of bolt.
Winchester serial number between 11252 - 14183
stamped lightly on right receiver rail.
USNM number between 1 -186 stamped on receiver ring.
Inspector stamps:
Receiver ring: U.S.N.M.
(anchor)
No. xxx
X.X.X.
Numbers 1 - 70 inspected by JNJ, 71 - 86 by CAB and 87 - 186 by FHS."

Culpeper's picture enhanced:

Myszkowski states (pages 44-46) it his belief that U.S.N.M. stands for U.S. Naval Militia.

He found no Navy documentation authorizing the marking or indicating shipment to a State Naval Militia.

There were 186 USNM marked rifles and they were purchased by the US Navy.

JNJ - inspected by Lt. John N. Jordan, USN.

CAB - inspected by Lt. Charles A. Brand, USN.

FHS - inspected by Lt. Frank H. Schofield, USN.

Where & when did the USNM & SN marking take place? At the Winchester factory? Are the stamps the same as Winchester? Same for SN stamps? And how are non-USNM rifles accepted for USN/USMC service marked?

I assume that the USN inspections took place at the Winchester factory?

How many Lee Navy rifles have been blown up since the internet came into use? & how many such accidents have been at least discussed (or maybe photographed in all their horrible detail?

And has anyone ever heard of a .25 Souper? A wildcat made from 6mm Lee Navy brass with the neck expanded to .25 caliber. One old timer told me that is what was done with some of the surplus Lee Navy rifles after their issue barrels were no longer accurate.

Hmmm...hadn't heard of the 6mm Lee Navy being the parent cartridge for the Souper. I had understood it to be a 25 caliber .308 case. I'll have to look again.

I recall seeing the name Souper, in one of my case forming books, but can't recall details without finding the book! Oh, it jumped out at me, thickest book I have! Book says .25-308 for the Souper. All I see in 25 cal wildcats that approximate the 6mm's headsize is 30-40 and .303 wildcats. But I'll bet somewhere along the way someone made a .25 Swift or maybe a .25 Lee!

Referring back to BR's pic of the blown rifle. That 30/40 case held. The problem was how much it had to hold, as evidenced by the expanded primer pocket. Yes, it was likely a little weaker with it's machined extractor groove, but it was strong enough to hold through all that primer pocket enlargement. Someone didn't load it right, or created an SEE event shooting a thick jacketed bullet in a rough throat with a light charge. My opinion anyway.

I recall seeing the name Souper, in one of my case forming books, but can't recall details without finding the book! Oh, it jumped out at me, thickest book I have! Book says .25-308 for the Souper. All I see in 25 cal wildcats that approximate the 6mm's headsize is 30-40 and .303 wildcats. But I'll bet somewhere along the way someone made a .25 Swift or maybe a .25 Lee!

Back in 1989, I was messing about with a Lee Navy sporter with a bad barrel. The old time gunsmith that was helping me said "back in the day, they would have bored it out to .25. There was a wildcat called the Souper. Just the Lee Navy case necked up to .25 caliber."