Another Depression Era cut-down 'Deer Rifle'

[butlersrangers]

Being a 'Bottom Feeder', I could not resist picking up this 3-shot Berthier rifle with a cut-down stock, for $130.

It was manufactured by Remington, has a mint bore, and looks "new" on the inside.

Unfortunately, the stock wrist was thinned down and the bayonet lugs were neatly filed off of the full-length barrel. So, it is not a great candidate for restoration.

It should be a fine and fun 'shooter'. I enjoy shooting Prvi 8mm Lebel ammo.

[Hoot]

That's cool. Good price as well.

And, don't say"bottom feeder" like it's a bad thing! There's plenty of us around enjoying the things others reject.

[reincarnated]

The bayonet lugs on the barrel did nothing to improve accuracy. That rifle was just a long handle for a bayonet, sort of a bolt-action pike or spear. And maybe the bayonet lugs got caught on brush, vines & fences.

I would be interested in how accurately it shoots. Cutting the barrel back past the bayonet lugs might stabilize vibrations and improve accuracy. Please keep us posted.

I have a M-1886 Kropatschek, 8x60R. Best it will do is a paper plate at 100 yards. Pretty dismal.

[butlersrangers]

My Remington made - model 1907-15 Berthier is ready for Range use "As Is".

It just would be fun to restore it to some semblance of how it left the Bridgeport factory.

The thinning of the stock wrist is ugly and frustrates salvaging the original wood by just splicing on a new forearm.

The removed bayonet lugs would only be noticed by a Collector.

The original front-sight blade appears to have been replaced by a taller homemade blade, possibly made from a Coin. (This will be better for Range work than original military blade).

One of my photos contrasts the altered Remington muzzle area with a Chatellerault made Berthier rifle. The French rifle still has its bayonet lugs and an interesting front sight. The sight block has a "V" instead of a blade. It can be filled with Radium paste for low light shooting. (Got any)?

[reincarnated]

One of my Krags has a front sight from a coin. In good light, you can see "In God We". I think it is a part of an old silver dime.

Have you measured groove diameter on the Berthiers?

[Hoot]

Need clips? This popped up the other day on GunBoards => http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?756754-WTS-French-Berthier-Clips-3-amp-5-round

I have dealt with this fellow and he is top notch. I don't know if the prices are in line or not. No connections here BTW.

[butlersrangers]

Thanks 'Hoot'. I have one rusty original and one repro 3-shot Berthier 'chargers'. The original one works best.

'Reincarnated' - The bore is beautiful and looks like it was 'Rifled' yesterday! Slugged Bore diameter is .317". Groove diameter is .329".

Barrel length is approx. 31 1/2".

[reincarnated]

What is the diameter of the original French bullets? And the diameter of the most recent stuff?

[butlersrangers]

I slugged the bore of a French built, (Chatellerault - 1917), Berthier rifle, today.

Surprisingly, it had the same dimensions, .317" bore and .329" groove diameter, as the Remington barrel.

This French made Berthier rifle has an "N" stamped on the receiver ring. This indicates the chamber was altered and will accept the 8mm Lebel machine gun round which has a larger neck diameter. This was part of a conversion program carried out by the French in the 1920s.

The French Military cancelled the contract with Remington during WW1. Whether the Arms were rejected due to late delivery, manufacturing flaws, or dimensional errors in the Remington rifles, seems unknown and subject to debate. The U.S. Government ended up buying the 'rejected' rifles. They were later sold as surplus to U.S. Civilians, after WW1.

Remington made 8mm Lebel military ammo on contract for the French during WW1. Remington manufactured sporting 8mm Lebel ammo into the 1950s for the U.S. market.

The 8mm Lebel round is the 'grand daddy' of smokeless ammo and Spitzer bullets. The cartridge case was cursed by being the 11mm Gras necked-down to 8mm. The drastic bottle-neck was necessitated by the Lebel rifle's tubular magazine. The Berthier (clip-loading) design was adopted later and made in great numbers during WW1.

Attached photo L-R:

(1.) A Kynock 1886 'Balle M' round with .323" diameter, 232 gr flat nosed bullet.

(2.) An 1898 French 'Balle D' round, dated 1916, solid bronze 198 gr bullet, .325" diameter, Trench Art alteration to letter-opener.

(3.) A French 1932-N cartridge, made in 1939, 232 gr lead-core, cupronickel jacket, .325" diameter.

(4.) A Commercial Prvi cartridge, 198 gr FMJ, .326" diameter.

Note - The maximum diameter of the 'Balle D' projectile is in front of the case mouth (crimp groove). Some sources give the maximum diameter as .3275".

Unaltered French arms use the 'Balle D' round and safely accept Prvi ammo.

[butlersrangers]

I took the Remington model 1907/15 Berthier to the Range today and fired some Prvi 198 gr FMJ factory ammo at 50 yards.

The performance was a bit disappointing. The eight shots spread 3 inches horizontally. The trigger pull was a bit variable.

I will have to give some attention to the Stock bedding and get some Lee Dies and do some reloading.

I have had better performance from other Berthier rifles in the past.