.30-40 Krag 1901 Sight Issue

[Olpeddler]

Hello, I am from central Massachusetts, 77 years old, and still blessed with pretty good eye sight. I grew up in New York State's Adirondack Mountains and remember many native old timers using .30-40 Krags as their deer rifle. As a kid, I was intrigued by the Krak's capsule magazine. My Dad told me that shortly after WW1 (in which he served), the Army sold Krags to the civilian market for $5.00. after WWI. As most Adirondack natives were 'dirt poor' in those days, many of them jumped at the Krags as the lever action Winchesters, Marlins, and Savages were too expensive for them.

I recently acquired a model 1899 .30-40 Krag carbine which my gunsmith certifies is in NRA Excellent condition. The only issue is the stock does not have a cartouche. I am a reloader and I bought a set Lee Pacemaker dies and Hornady brass. I had on hand Hornady .308, 180 gr., RN Interlock bullet which I use in my .303 Savage Model 99. I loaded up 50 rounds using 25 grs. of IMR 4198 which I also had on hand, and, yesterday headed to the range.
Mechanically, the rifle performed well. It cycled perfectly with no jams or hang fires. However, at 50 yards, I COULD NOT GET ON PAPER! POI's were 24" high. The rifle carries the 1901 rear sight, and I was able to adjust the windage to be OK horizontally, but with the ladder sight set at its lowest elevation I was consistently 2 feet high. ]Is my only solution to this elevation issue to install a front sight with a higher post?
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.

[Kerz]

Olpeddler
Many thanks for joining us here at Krag!
My initial thoughts are:
*4198 is way too fast for 180 gr bullets in a Krag.
*Suggest something in the 4064, 4350 range.
*Load the 180 gr bullets to something like 2100 to 2200 fps

Vic

[Olpeddler]

Thanks Vic, I will reload some rounds today using IMR 4350; I'll post the results later this week.

Olpeddler

[Whig]

Mr. Olpeddler from Massachusetts, welcome to KCA!. You have come to the right place for everything Krag.

Congrats on owning a M1899 Krag carbine. Sounds like you are working on trying to get the most enjoyment out of your carbine. Krags are great fun but can be very frustrating when you run into problems.

Fisrt of all, if you are able to take some pictures and post them here for us to see, we would love to enjoy your carbine with you and we might be able to point out some details right off the bat that can give some insight into what you have and what might be going on with it. Any alterations from original military configuration could alter its function. That could include an altered front or rear sight, a damaged barrel or bad bore with little rifling left, a stock that has issues of fit and function that might change the shooting ability, a chamber or bolt issue that could affect shooting. There can be many things that attribute to poor accuracy.

Original and properly functioning Krags, rifles as well as carbines, can be shot, with good ammunition, to minute of angle accuracy. I'm getting close with mine. Others here have done it. But, when you are off that much and can't get it on paper, something is wrong.

Have you tried factory ammo yet? If you look at the older ammo posts, you'll find ample examples of reloading recommendations for accurate ammo with different bullets and powder.

So, good luck. We'd love to see pictures. Many times the front sight has been changed and that's the simple correction. The front sight blade on the M1899 carbine with the M1901 rear sight was originally 0.352 inches. The rifle front sight blades were 0.410 inches. Check it out!

[psteinmayer]

Welcome to the forum Olpeddler! You're among friends here...

No Cartouche doesn't detract from a Krag's worth. Many times, it's simply because the stock was replaced in the field.

I agree with Vic... 4198 is too fast. For a 180 gr, try 4064 or 4895, and consult a good loading manual for a safe load (Krags are one rifle you don't want to load "HOT")! In my opinion, 4350 is very slow, and would be way too slow for a 180 grain bullet - you'd have too much powder unburned by the time the bullet leaves the muzzle.

[madsenshooter]

I have one 1901 sight that has been modified for short range. By who I can't say, but it was done well. They had cut as much as possible from the bottom, between the arms of the ladder, towards where the pin goes through leaf and base, so that one was able to see through the peep at shorter ranges. Now that I'm talking about it, I've no idea where it's at, or I'd get some pics. It's somewhere in this house of boxes! You'd probably not want to modify a carbine sight though, and that leaves you needing a higher front blade.

[butlersrangers]

'Olpeddler' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

As others have pointed out, IMR-4198 is not an appropriate propellant for 180 grain jacketed bullets in the .30-40 cartridge. (It is often used in 'cast' bullet loadings).

IMR-4350 would be an appropriate powder, and IMR-4895 even better, for 180 grain projectiles. I believe, you will get a different trajectory with these conventional powders.

FWIW - When I experience or suspect an original military rifle to be shooting "High", I use the expedient of stapling one 'Bull's-eye', above another, and then aim at the lower 'Bull'. This allows my shots to group on the upper target.

(I measure the difference of point of aim and point of strike for future correction. At least having a 'group' on paper allows me to evaluate the accuracy of a load).

It is not normal for a Krag to shoot 2 feet high at 50 yards. Like others, I suspect the problem was your Load.

We would all like to see pictures of your Krag. It's the way we roll!

BTW - The 1901 carbine-sight leaf goes up to 23, (2,300 yards), the rifle version to 20, (2,000 yards). There is normally little problem grouping a Krag on paper at 50 yards.

Attached: Photos of U.S. Model 1899 carbine rear and front-sights.

[Olpeddler]

A grateful 'Thank You' to everyone who replied to my posting regarding my model 1999 Krag carbine shooting 2' high at 50 yds. Each reply made me feel welcome to the forum.
Obviously, my powder choice of IMR 4198 was "way off the mark". I have since loaded a dozen rounds each of slower powders behind the 180 gr Hornady Interlock RN bullets as follows:

IMR 4350 - - 34 grs.
R/L 15 - - 32 grs.
IMR 4895 - - 28.5 grs.

These loads have been reduced by 15% versus the starting loads listed in Hornady's Reloading Manual because I don't want to put too much pressure on the old girl. Yesterday, my son and I went to range to test these loads at 50 yds. However, the range had been rented out to community group for a Turkey Shoot. So, I plan to be at the range on Tues., 11/26 to test these loads. I did not have any 4064 powder on hand, nor could I find any at Cabelas.
Please let me know if any of these loads don't make sense to you. I can always pull the bullets and adjust the powder charge. I will report my test results within a week. Happy Thanksgiving to You and your Families !

[Parashooter]

I think some of the powder advice here conflicts with your apparent goal of producing loads with significantly reduced pressure and velocity. If you employ those slower powders for reduced loads, they never get "hot" enough to burn well, resulting in inefficient combustion and a lot of unburnt power blowing out the muzzle behind the bullet. In addition, the loads you've listed with the slower powders won't produce enough pressure to thoroughly expand the case on firing, often resulting in sooty cases and sometimes (rarely in US Krags) a bit of "blow by" as gas escapes back around the unexpanded case.

If you wish to produce reduced loads, you're actually better off with faster powders (like 4198) that will burn more completely at the lower chamber pressures desired.

In my next post is a QuickLOAD software estimate of results with several powders at a pressure of 30000 psi (about the minimum for good case expansion in a cartridge of this size). Note the "Prop.Burnt" column to get a reasonable idea of load efficiency.

As for the vertical POI problem, I suspect you're going to need a higher front sight blade. If you're handy with tools, this is a pretty simple do-it-yourself project that can be accomplished without any permanent alteration.

[Parashooter]

Cartridge : .30-40 Krag
Bullet : .308, 180, Hornady RN 3075
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.089 inch or 78.46 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 30000 psi, or 206 MPa

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

[tt]Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 4064 78.7 34.7 2.25 2063 91.7 30000 7301 1.507
IMR 4198 65.5 27.4 1.78 2021 100.0 30000 6014 1.506
IMR 4350 90.1 40.3 2.61 2078 81.2 30000 7774 1.497
IMR 4895 77.5 35.0 2.27 2119 94.4 30000 7710 1.471
Alliant Reloder-15 76.8 35.8 2.32 2099 91.5 30000 7810 1.520[/tt]