Hello!
Its been a long while since my last visit.
I was fortunate to pick up an incredibly pristine 1898 Krag, manufactured in 1900 (verified by s/n and cartouche) which has the 1896 rear sight that is
non-adjustable for windage. I cannot remember where I read it, but according to that article Springfield was hoping to use the new 1898 adjustable
sight, but they weren't ready in time so they opted to use the 1896 sight instead so as not to delay procurement. I don't know if this story is true,
but I am just relating what I read.
The problem is that the rifle shoots several inches to the right at 100 yards. I can't drift either sight, front or rear. Does anyone have a suggestion?
As stated, this rifle is in excellent shape throughout, showing extremely limited use.
I was thinking of looking for the 1898 sight, but would the handguard be different~~and the same for the sight mounting? What did they do back then
to rectify a slight problem like this? Any advice will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
1898 Krag, dated 1900
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9857
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
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Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
(I believe the original post was edited and changed, while I was typing a response, so some of my 'answer' no longer aligns with the 'question').
BushRat - I imagine your Krag is actually fitted with the model 1896 rear-sight, which has no provision for 'windage' adjustment.
The model 1896 sight was utilized as an interim sight on some model 1898 rifles, when the model 1898 sight was abandoned and manufacture of the 1901 sight was delayed.
A model 1901 sight will fit on your rifle. All U.S. Krag sights use the same mounting-screw placement.
However, the different rear-sights require specific mounting screws to be correct.
The handguard sight-opening is different for the model 1896 sight, the model 1898 & 1902 sights, and the model 1901 rear-sight.
If your 'windage' is just off by 3 or 4 inches to the right, at 100 yards, I would just aim at 9 o'clock on the left edge of the Bullseye.
Maybe, just stick a yellow 'post-it' at 9 o'clock and use it as the 'aiming point', with shots actually striking in the center of the Bull?
Unless you are in competitive shooting at varying distances or need to be 'spot on' for Hunting, it doesn't matter too much, if 'point of aim' and the actual grouping of bullet hits are a few inches apart.
The size of the groups is the actual measure of accuracy.
(U.S. Soldiers must have used 'Kentucky Windage' and compensated with their 'point of aim', once they realized their rifles were not perfectly sighted).
p.s. - We would enjoy seeing some photos of your Krag!
BushRat - I imagine your Krag is actually fitted with the model 1896 rear-sight, which has no provision for 'windage' adjustment.
The model 1896 sight was utilized as an interim sight on some model 1898 rifles, when the model 1898 sight was abandoned and manufacture of the 1901 sight was delayed.
A model 1901 sight will fit on your rifle. All U.S. Krag sights use the same mounting-screw placement.
However, the different rear-sights require specific mounting screws to be correct.
The handguard sight-opening is different for the model 1896 sight, the model 1898 & 1902 sights, and the model 1901 rear-sight.
If your 'windage' is just off by 3 or 4 inches to the right, at 100 yards, I would just aim at 9 o'clock on the left edge of the Bullseye.
Maybe, just stick a yellow 'post-it' at 9 o'clock and use it as the 'aiming point', with shots actually striking in the center of the Bull?
Unless you are in competitive shooting at varying distances or need to be 'spot on' for Hunting, it doesn't matter too much, if 'point of aim' and the actual grouping of bullet hits are a few inches apart.
The size of the groups is the actual measure of accuracy.
(U.S. Soldiers must have used 'Kentucky Windage' and compensated with their 'point of aim', once they realized their rifles were not perfectly sighted).
p.s. - We would enjoy seeing some photos of your Krag!
Last edited by butlersrangers on Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
Welcome back, Bushrat! Congratulations on your new Krag. It sounds great to have one in such nice condition. We'd love to see pictures and get the serial number to confirm the date of manufacture that you have found. Some of the records available aren't as accurate for dating as they should be. Pictures would be nice so we can enjoy your new Krag as much as you do.
You said that you have the Model 1896 rear sight on your Krag. We'd need some pictures of that sight to make sure it hasn't been damaged or altered that could cause it to sight off track. You didn't say what front sight is on it, though. If it is a Springfield Armory sight, it may be bent or shifted somehow. Your Krag could also have an after-market barrel attached that was not timed correctly and cause it to shoot off point of aim. There are many reasons things like this happen. Maybe the barrel is bent? Pictures of your Krag might help us explain your shooting experience. We have seen just about everything before!
How is the bore? Later Krags were not used in some of the wars they were used in and usually have nice bores. But, it may have pitting and rifling damage from poor maintenance. Just because it is "pristine" on the outside doesn't say anything about the bore condition. The crown of the muzzle may be damaged and cause the bullet to veer off track. That can be critical. What ammunition were you shooting? Lots of questions but answers can help us examine your issue. Krags often can shoot 2 MOA and better groups with open sights and the sighting can be right on point of aim with even different rear sights. I have shot great groups with my Krags with factory ammo and my reloads.
Welcome back and we'll await pictures! Thanks.
You said that you have the Model 1896 rear sight on your Krag. We'd need some pictures of that sight to make sure it hasn't been damaged or altered that could cause it to sight off track. You didn't say what front sight is on it, though. If it is a Springfield Armory sight, it may be bent or shifted somehow. Your Krag could also have an after-market barrel attached that was not timed correctly and cause it to shoot off point of aim. There are many reasons things like this happen. Maybe the barrel is bent? Pictures of your Krag might help us explain your shooting experience. We have seen just about everything before!
How is the bore? Later Krags were not used in some of the wars they were used in and usually have nice bores. But, it may have pitting and rifling damage from poor maintenance. Just because it is "pristine" on the outside doesn't say anything about the bore condition. The crown of the muzzle may be damaged and cause the bullet to veer off track. That can be critical. What ammunition were you shooting? Lots of questions but answers can help us examine your issue. Krags often can shoot 2 MOA and better groups with open sights and the sighting can be right on point of aim with even different rear sights. I have shot great groups with my Krags with factory ammo and my reloads.
Welcome back and we'll await pictures! Thanks.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9857
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
A seldom told story is that The U.S. Ordnance Department struggled with the problem of getting their mass produced, interchangeable parts, 'smokeless' powder, .30 caliber magazine rifles to all shoot to the 'point of aim'.
The Department had difficulty finding a successful domestic produced 'smokeless' propellant and great problems in arriving at a workable bullet jacket composition & construction.
The ever changing parade of U.S. Krag rear-sights reflect efforts to overcome sight weaknesses, cartridge development, and conflicting demands and Ordnance Department personalities.
The truth is that no two Krag rifles shot quite identically. U.S. Krag rifles were found to show the phenomena of having projectiles exit the bore, deviating to the left.
This varied between rifles and continued to about 750-800 yards, where it reached its maximum. Beyond that distance, 'rotational drift' of the bullet brought the projectile to the right. At around 1,100 yards the bullet crossed the 'sight line'. Beyond 1,100 yards drift continued to the right.
In essence, probably due to asymmetrical Bolt lock-up and barrel harmonics, the Krag rifle threw 'curveballs'. This effect varied between rifles and was found to be less with 22 inch carbine barrels and the 26 inch barrel on the Board of Ordnance & Fortifications experimental rifles.
Model 1898 Krag rifles in approximately the 218,000 to 253,000 serial number range were initially fitted with the 'three-notch' model 1898 sight adapted to the ballistics of a new 2,200 f.p.s. cartridge. This was the first adopted U.S. Krag sight with windage adjustment.
The new cartridge was found to develop pressures that were too hot for the Krag's metallurgy, so there was a return to the old 2,000 f.p.s. cartridge.
The faster cartridge and the model 1898 sight were removed from service.
The final U.S. Krag sights, the model 1901 and model 1902, would incorporate adjustment for windage.
During its production from 1894 to 1904, the U.S. Krag was usually a 'work in progress'.
The Department had difficulty finding a successful domestic produced 'smokeless' propellant and great problems in arriving at a workable bullet jacket composition & construction.
The ever changing parade of U.S. Krag rear-sights reflect efforts to overcome sight weaknesses, cartridge development, and conflicting demands and Ordnance Department personalities.
The truth is that no two Krag rifles shot quite identically. U.S. Krag rifles were found to show the phenomena of having projectiles exit the bore, deviating to the left.
This varied between rifles and continued to about 750-800 yards, where it reached its maximum. Beyond that distance, 'rotational drift' of the bullet brought the projectile to the right. At around 1,100 yards the bullet crossed the 'sight line'. Beyond 1,100 yards drift continued to the right.
In essence, probably due to asymmetrical Bolt lock-up and barrel harmonics, the Krag rifle threw 'curveballs'. This effect varied between rifles and was found to be less with 22 inch carbine barrels and the 26 inch barrel on the Board of Ordnance & Fortifications experimental rifles.
Model 1898 Krag rifles in approximately the 218,000 to 253,000 serial number range were initially fitted with the 'three-notch' model 1898 sight adapted to the ballistics of a new 2,200 f.p.s. cartridge. This was the first adopted U.S. Krag sight with windage adjustment.
The new cartridge was found to develop pressures that were too hot for the Krag's metallurgy, so there was a return to the old 2,000 f.p.s. cartridge.
The faster cartridge and the model 1898 sight were removed from service.
The final U.S. Krag sights, the model 1901 and model 1902, would incorporate adjustment for windage.
During its production from 1894 to 1904, the U.S. Krag was usually a 'work in progress'.
Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
One thought on why the point of aim is off would be a replacement barrel was not tightened properly and the front sight is not clocked correctly. This may not be the case here but is something that can happen. The next time the barrel and receiver are out of the stock it would not hurt to check if the index marks are correctly aligned.
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butlersrangers
- Posts: 9857
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
The front of the Krag receiver 'ring' has an index mark at 9 o'clock. The barrel has a similar mark at 9 o'clock. The lines should 'match-up'.
FWIW - In my experience, with military rifles with front and rear sights that have no provision for 'windage' adjustment or correction, there will usually be a variance of two to four inches between point of aim and where things hit, at 100 yards.
That is not a result of anything being wrong with a rifle, but just evidence of the magnitude of any sighting error and the virtue of having provision for windage adjusment.
FWIW - In my experience, with military rifles with front and rear sights that have no provision for 'windage' adjustment or correction, there will usually be a variance of two to four inches between point of aim and where things hit, at 100 yards.
That is not a result of anything being wrong with a rifle, but just evidence of the magnitude of any sighting error and the virtue of having provision for windage adjusment.
Re: 1898 Krag, dated 1900
Hi Guys!
Thank you for your warm greetings! I wasn't expecting so many replies and so much good advice! I will try to post pics, but with two caveats: first, I'm not very good with computers and such, and secondly, please excuse the messy workbench! I prefer to take outdoors pics, but our weather up here is not conducive to taking snapshots right now...
To try to answer some of your questions: the crown looks fine, and though the bore is dark with age, it otherwise retains very strong rifling and little evidence of pitting or corrosion.
As stated, the rifle is in very nice shape. Both sights are undamaged.
I was shooting just some regular Remington ammo if I recall. Nothing fancy or exotic or reloaded. It didn't do bad, just off maybe 2" at 100yds, with decent grouping. My first Krag
(which I NEVER should have sold!) had the 1901 sights which made zeroing a breeze!
I've pretty much decided to leave the old girl alone and let her retain those 1896 sights. The rifle has lasted 123 years so far without anyone monkeying with it, so whom am I to try
to change things? (butlersrangers, I am taking your advice!)
Guys, I really do appreciate all the advice, and I will try not to be such a stranger to the forum!
ps) pics will have to wait until I can get my son or someone to show me how to do this...I'm sorry! Its tough being a dinosaur....!
Thank you for your warm greetings! I wasn't expecting so many replies and so much good advice! I will try to post pics, but with two caveats: first, I'm not very good with computers and such, and secondly, please excuse the messy workbench! I prefer to take outdoors pics, but our weather up here is not conducive to taking snapshots right now...
To try to answer some of your questions: the crown looks fine, and though the bore is dark with age, it otherwise retains very strong rifling and little evidence of pitting or corrosion.
As stated, the rifle is in very nice shape. Both sights are undamaged.
I was shooting just some regular Remington ammo if I recall. Nothing fancy or exotic or reloaded. It didn't do bad, just off maybe 2" at 100yds, with decent grouping. My first Krag
(which I NEVER should have sold!) had the 1901 sights which made zeroing a breeze!
I've pretty much decided to leave the old girl alone and let her retain those 1896 sights. The rifle has lasted 123 years so far without anyone monkeying with it, so whom am I to try
to change things? (butlersrangers, I am taking your advice!)
Guys, I really do appreciate all the advice, and I will try not to be such a stranger to the forum!
ps) pics will have to wait until I can get my son or someone to show me how to do this...I'm sorry! Its tough being a dinosaur....!
