I have a C&R and I have had this Carbine for awhile. The research I have shows its real. Might be a unicorn. Might be a fake. I believe it is one of the 5000. M-1989 S/N 1257xx only six digits in the serial number. It falls in the serial number range of the 1898 carbine. Any info anyone has would be great.
Thanks.
Dave Brown
Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
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Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
Dave,
Welcome to KCA! You have asked a good question and it is often hard to answer for sure. Even having all the correct parts and serial number range for a Model 1898 in a "carbine" state, it is sometimes hard to verify for sure whether or not it is really a true Model 1898 carbine. The carbine and rifle receivers were the same for both. It is necessary to have a correct carbine rear sight for the right package and yours does not. It appears to be a Model 1901 rifle rear sight. There are not quite enough pictures to tell all the details either.
You might want to read the posts for the thread below. It discusses many of these details. You have a nice Krag which may be a true Model 1898 carbine but we can't tell for sure yet.
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.or ... 1569961276
Welcome to KCA! You have asked a good question and it is often hard to answer for sure. Even having all the correct parts and serial number range for a Model 1898 in a "carbine" state, it is sometimes hard to verify for sure whether or not it is really a true Model 1898 carbine. The carbine and rifle receivers were the same for both. It is necessary to have a correct carbine rear sight for the right package and yours does not. It appears to be a Model 1901 rifle rear sight. There are not quite enough pictures to tell all the details either.
You might want to read the posts for the thread below. It discusses many of these details. You have a nice Krag which may be a true Model 1898 carbine but we can't tell for sure yet.
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.or ... 1569961276
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
Will check out the post. Many thanks.
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
I just checked this link. It works to take you to the thread I have referenced but the old posts are not loading the nice pictures we uploaded years ago which are quite helpful. i wish the pictures had survived the switch over to the new forum format. Also, make sure you see all three pages. The little page notation is small at the bottom of each page.
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
Copy many thanks.
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
If you had a choice would you purchase LTCOL Brophys book or Frank Mallorys book to ID a Krag?
Many thanks.
Many thanks.
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9893
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
'ddabrown' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.
I have long enjoyed Frank Mallory's "Krag Rifle Story" and William Brophy's "The Krag Rifle". The two books overlap a lot, but also nicely complement each other.
They do a good job of telling the story of the selection of the Krag and the manufacturing process at Springfield Armory.
Both books do a good job of identifying & showing parts and describing their evolution.
If I could only have one of them, I would choose Mallory's "KRS", second edition.
(The 1st edition is not as good and lacks the SRS data).
This book is out of print. When it shows up on ebay it gets priced around $200.
(Brophy's book is also out of print and sells for around $100).
If I was guided by a very strict budget or had less of a specialized interest in Krags, I would spend less than $100 and buy two books,
that have not been mentioned:
1. Joe Poyer's book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", costs less than $30.
It contains lots of information & history, quality photos and sketches, and identifies models & parts evolution, well.
It has serial number tables, that allow an approximation of the manufacture date, by month and year. Lots of fun for the price!
2. A more unusual choice (for Krags) would be Bruce Canfield's book, "U.S. Military Bolt Action Rifles". The book costs around $60.
Although just a small part of this book contains material covering the Krag, it does concisely tell a general history of this U.S. arm and models are explained with good photographs.
The book's appendix has SRS data for the Krag and U.S. Rifle of 1917, as well as, some other rifles.
I have long enjoyed Frank Mallory's "Krag Rifle Story" and William Brophy's "The Krag Rifle". The two books overlap a lot, but also nicely complement each other.
They do a good job of telling the story of the selection of the Krag and the manufacturing process at Springfield Armory.
Both books do a good job of identifying & showing parts and describing their evolution.
If I could only have one of them, I would choose Mallory's "KRS", second edition.
(The 1st edition is not as good and lacks the SRS data).
This book is out of print. When it shows up on ebay it gets priced around $200.
(Brophy's book is also out of print and sells for around $100).
If I was guided by a very strict budget or had less of a specialized interest in Krags, I would spend less than $100 and buy two books,
that have not been mentioned:
1. Joe Poyer's book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", costs less than $30.
It contains lots of information & history, quality photos and sketches, and identifies models & parts evolution, well.
It has serial number tables, that allow an approximation of the manufacture date, by month and year. Lots of fun for the price!
2. A more unusual choice (for Krags) would be Bruce Canfield's book, "U.S. Military Bolt Action Rifles". The book costs around $60.
Although just a small part of this book contains material covering the Krag, it does concisely tell a general history of this U.S. arm and models are explained with good photographs.
The book's appendix has SRS data for the Krag and U.S. Rifle of 1917, as well as, some other rifles.
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
Also consider Joe Farmer's Book, "Farmer's Notes, Volume 6, US Military Krags" . Joe has an interesting writing style and ther is a lot of good information.
5madfarmers@gmail.com
5madfarmers@gmail.com
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9893
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
'ddabrown' - Your Krag, serial number 1257XX, would have likely been assembled around August or September, 1898.
Your Krag appears to have a Krag carbine barrel and front-sight on it, but other things make it highly suspicious.
The present rear-sight is a model 1901 rifle sight. Your handguard is for the model 1898 and model 1902 rear-sights.
Your 1898/1902 handguard sight-opening has likely been altered by a civilian owner, to accommodate the 1901 rear-sight.
Your stock is either a cut-down rifle stock or a model 1899 carbine stock, with sling-swivels added. The 1899 carbine stock is longer than the 1898 carbine stock.
We would need to see the right-side of your Krag to identify the origin of the stock.
Real U.S. Krag carbine stocks have the barrel-band retained by a flat-spring inletted into the stock forearm tip.
(BTW - The only model 1898 carbine in the 125K range, that was documented by Frank Mallory and listed in the SRS data, is number 125062).
The three 1257XX numbers that are listed in the Springfield Research Services data are: 125706, 125735, and 125776, all model 1898 rifles, issued to volunteer infantry regiments in 1898.
Only around 5,002 U.S. model 1898 Krag carbines were made.
Most of them were later updated to U.S. model 1899 carbine configuration and are essentially model 1899 carbines.
Most collectors desire U.S. model 1898 carbines that are still in their original 'short stock', with a "carbine saddle-ring" and model 1896 carbine rear-sight.
This version looks very similar to the model 1896 cavalry carbine.
Attached: 1. Dave's handguard which has the long opening for 1898/1902 sights. 2. The left-side view of Dave's Krag shows what appears to be a shortened rifle-stock.
3. My photo, showing a U.S. model 1899 Krag Carbine barrel-band retained by a flat-spring.
Your Krag appears to have a Krag carbine barrel and front-sight on it, but other things make it highly suspicious.
The present rear-sight is a model 1901 rifle sight. Your handguard is for the model 1898 and model 1902 rear-sights.
Your 1898/1902 handguard sight-opening has likely been altered by a civilian owner, to accommodate the 1901 rear-sight.
Your stock is either a cut-down rifle stock or a model 1899 carbine stock, with sling-swivels added. The 1899 carbine stock is longer than the 1898 carbine stock.
We would need to see the right-side of your Krag to identify the origin of the stock.
Real U.S. Krag carbine stocks have the barrel-band retained by a flat-spring inletted into the stock forearm tip.
(BTW - The only model 1898 carbine in the 125K range, that was documented by Frank Mallory and listed in the SRS data, is number 125062).
The three 1257XX numbers that are listed in the Springfield Research Services data are: 125706, 125735, and 125776, all model 1898 rifles, issued to volunteer infantry regiments in 1898.
Only around 5,002 U.S. model 1898 Krag carbines were made.
Most of them were later updated to U.S. model 1899 carbine configuration and are essentially model 1899 carbines.
Most collectors desire U.S. model 1898 carbines that are still in their original 'short stock', with a "carbine saddle-ring" and model 1896 carbine rear-sight.
This version looks very similar to the model 1896 cavalry carbine.
Attached: 1. Dave's handguard which has the long opening for 1898/1902 sights. 2. The left-side view of Dave's Krag shows what appears to be a shortened rifle-stock.
3. My photo, showing a U.S. model 1899 Krag Carbine barrel-band retained by a flat-spring.
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Last edited by butlersrangers on Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- butlersrangers
- Posts: 9893
- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:35 pm
- Location: Below the Bridge, Michigan
Re: Is it a real carbine or a Frankenstein
IMO - Joe Farmer's book is entertaining and full of good facts, advanced pioneering information & research, insightful observations & views, theoretical content and 'forensic/debate' kind of stuff'.
A 'Krag novice' and even experienced Krag students may often feel lost by the content, approach, and style.
Mr. Farmer never intended to cover Krag basics or repeat the style and structure of earlier 'Krag Book' authors.
His book is a fun challenge, when you are ready for it.
(BTW - Mr. Farmer detests me and he has not posted on the KCA Forum for years. He does know a ton of stuff).
A 'Krag novice' and even experienced Krag students may often feel lost by the content, approach, and style.
Mr. Farmer never intended to cover Krag basics or repeat the style and structure of earlier 'Krag Book' authors.
His book is a fun challenge, when you are ready for it.
(BTW - Mr. Farmer detests me and he has not posted on the KCA Forum for years. He does know a ton of stuff).