Clyde Barrow's Krag discussion

[cantgrowup]

Hey guys. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. I am not a Krag collector, but merely an amateur Bonnie and Clyde historian.... and I collect firearms that are representative of those used by the Barrow gang AND by the law enforcement officers against them. One of the least documented of these historical firearms is the Krag that Clyde is holding on his lap, and shown leaning up against the bumper of the '32 Ford Model B 400 sedan. I am trying to identify the specific model and or components shown in the pictures so that I can add or replicate one for my collection. What better place to go than a forum dedicted to Krags! I fully understand that his rifle may have been and probably was a "Frankenstein" of various components and I'm hoping y'all can help.





Rear Sight: I have done quite a bit of Google sleuthing on Krags and picture "blow up" analysis of the Barrow Krag in question I have determined that the rear sight elevation ramp appears to be smoothly curved up, with no steps (so it's not an 1892 or 1901) and no humps (so it's not an 1898 or 1902). I've read that this is an "1896" sight.

Upper handguard: The upper forearm stock has a distinctive long hump. I've read that this is an "1896 C" style (does not appear to be a shorter hump "1901 C").

Stock: I'm assuming this was not a carbine because it has a bayonet barrel band. The stock itself looks to me like it has broken or been cut at an upward angle just forward of the rear barrel band, because the bayonet barrel band is too far to the rear and there appears to be a gap between the bottom of the bayonet band and the stock (like it is just freely sliding down the barrel).

Barrel length: This is impossible to determine. Many argue that it is a full length rifle barrel as the front sight is hiding behind the car headlamp. However, I have done photo analysis of lengths on the pictured rifle vs my only Krag and determined that a shorter barrel is possible. An examination of the shadow of the barrel on the ground shows a bump near the edge of the photo. I've blown this up and think that is a rock on the ground, but immediately beyond that, the barrel shadow begins to widen. That could be the shadow of the beginning of the front sight.



This is my 1898 Krag that I bought in the configuration shown. I've been told that it is most likely a "school gun" that was converted and given to ROTC drill teams and such. I'm not so much interested in the historical model correctness of my rifle, but merely interested in whether it suffices as my collection's "Clyde Krag" matching the one in the photos. It has the correct rear sight, correct upper handguard, bayonet barrel band, and it's barrel length is not precluded by the photo analysis. I realize that my stock is too long, but if I can prove my "Clyde's busted stock" hypothesis, I'll try to find a busted junker Krag stock that I can switch out.

So... let's discuss.

[butlersrangers]

You have a nice 'school rifle', especially if it has a model 1899 marked receiver and a real model 1896 carbine rear-sight.
(A true model 1896 carbine sight, alone, has a current value of around $1,000).

I spent a lot of time trying to find a serial number for Clyde Barrow's Krag, without success. I will try to find that old thread and 'bump' it.

I came to the conclusion that it was likely a 30" barrel rifle, with the stock forearm 'shortened' and the front barrel-band just 'jammed' on. The barrel may have been shortened and a 'banded front-sight' added. It is very interesting and a head scratcher that Clyde's handguard happens to be a late carbine handguard.
(Then again, Bannerman's and Stokes-Kirk put parts-guns together and sold them Mail-Order)

FWIW - I think you have the Clyde Barrow 'Krag story' adequately covered with your school rifle. The actual length of Clyde's Krag is 'unknowable'.

IIRC - Clyde liked this Krag, but did not have it for long. He saw it on a moonshiner's wall in Arkansas and traded a .22 Savage-HP rifle and some cash for it.

Clyde's Krag likely came into police possession at Joplin, Missouri, (along with rollls of undeveloped film and other arms), when the Barrow Gang hastily fled a rented garage/apartment, murdering Police Officers during the mayhem. This shootout put the Barrow Gang on the 'Nation's Radar'.

I believe the Krag was listed as a "Springfield rifle" in the Joplin police reports, simply because "Springfield Armory" is stamped on the receiver.
Humorously, the man who sold the Krag to Clyde Barrow left his Arkansas Hunting License rolled up in the butt-trap! This led to a Joplin Police follow up.
The Arkansas Sheriff upheld the 'seller' as being a law abiding citizen, outside for being involved with the 'Moonshine' trade.

[cantgrowup]

Thanks "Butlersrangers",

My receiver is marked 1898. I got my sight and handguard info from these...





What makes a true "1896 carbine sight"? You mention that Clyde's has the late carbine handguard (1901 C?), but it looks like an 1896 C to me based on the above. I've been trying to find a picture of the actual rifle/carbine that used the 1896 C handguard.

I was aware of the Alva Hall bootlegger trade from the BonnieandClydehistory.blogspot.com article but not much else about the encounter. I just learned there's a DVD available one the FBI and Joplin files. I will try to order it.

With my recent addition of a 4 3/4" revolver "Colt Frontier Six Shooter" .44-40, my B&C collection of 30 guns is pretty much complete. I have no idea of what Clyde's Savage Model 99 .22 High Power may have looked like, but I guess I need one of those.

As you and I agree, there's no current proof as to the length, so I'll just use my short Krag.... especially if I find a busted stock to modify like the pic.

Thanks for your help.

[Culpeper]

... Barrel length: This is impossible to determine. Many argue that it is a full length rifle barrel as the front sight is hiding behind the car headlamp. However, I have done photo analysis of lengths on the pictured rifle vs my only Krag and determined that a shorter barrel is possible. An examination of the shadow of the barrel on the ground shows a bump near the edge of the photo. I've blown this up and think that is a rock on the ground, but immediately beyond that, the barrel shadow begins to widen. That could be the shadow of the beginning of the front sight. ...

Never mind. I deleted the original thought and did it myself. I measured my carbine (125699) It has the same rear sight but different hand guard. That would give a known distance measurement. The tape shows the length is 6 3/4 inches from the rear of the hand guard to the front edge of the rear sight. Transferring the measurement to the original photograph shows the barrel is no less than 20 1/4 inches with a bit of ish leftover for a total of 22 inches. It can also be said the barrel is not a rifle barrel due the nature of the headlamp construction. The barrel would pass through the lamp housing if it was thirty inches long. That is a physical impossibility. Too, if the barrel was longer it would lean more to the left and show itself above the ring of the head lamp.

Clyde Barrow had a carbine length Krag. While the 1934 photo is not greatest I cannot discern a M1903 front sight on the fire arm. Mystery solved. By Me. Culpeper.

[cantgrowup]

Exactly 10".

[butlersrangers]

'cantgrowup' - I forgot my manners. Welcome to the KCA Forum ... "where you are a stranger only once".

Your 'school rifle' just got more interesting.
Only 5,002 U.S. model 1898 carbines were made. Initially, they had a 'short' carbine stock and a model 1896 carbine rear-sight.
The model 1896 carbines looked very similar to the model 1896 carbines, with a sight-protecting barrel-band and a sling-bar & ring.

When the U.S. model 1899 carbine was adopted, it featured a longer stock, a streamlined barrel-band, and dispensed with the 'sling-bar & ring'.

When model 1896 and model 1898 carbines came into the Armory, Arsenals, and Depots for 'refurbishing', a lot of them received a longer model 1899 style stock to make them more like the model 1899 carbine. When 'updated', a model 1898 carbine was virtually identical to the model 1899 carbine.

When "School Rifles" started to be produced around 1905-06, with shortened rifle-stocks 'altered for sling and bayonet', they were produced using both model 1899 and model 1898 carbines.

Three different carbine rear-sights can be correct on a 'School Rifle', (when matched with a sight specific handguard), the model 1896 carbine sight, the model 1901 carbine sight, and the model 1902 carbine sight.

Your handguard was produced around 1902, to go with a model 1899 carbine stock and barrel-band. It was shaped to fit and protect the model 1896 carbine rear-sight.

Attached photos show the model 1896 carbine rear-sight, with a leaf that goes to 20 (2,000 yards) and a "C" marking. The model 1896 rifle sight only goes to 18 (1,800 yards) and lacks the "C" marking.

If you post some clear 'close-up' photos of your School Rifle, showing its wood and metal markings, front-sight base and blade, stock-tip, front band, and rear-sight details, members can tell you a lot more.

[Culpeper]

Exactly 10".

Thanks. I edited my write up.

And Welcome to the Greatest Krag forum on the planet.

[butlersrangers]

Culpeper - Thanks for playing with the photograph. It confirms a likely 'shortened' rifle barrel and a 'banded' front-sight.

That front-sight could be a myriad of possibilities!

FWIW - That sawed-off pump shotgun has a 15" barrel. I'm not sure about the barrel length of the 'Browning style' semi-auto?

The humor of this whole situation is that, if we only knew Clyde Barrow's Krag serial number, one of the most "valuable" Krags could be a "Bubba'd Deer Rifle" residing in an attic, basement, or barn in Missouri!

Oh, I wouldn't want it! All his Texas relatives would be taking me to court for the return of a 'cobbled up' $300 Krag!

[cantgrowup]

LOL! Now I'm more confused than ever! Here are some extra pics of my rifle







So... even if I have an interesting "school rifle", my main concern is if it checks all the boxes for a Clyde Krag in my collection. I think it does for the sights and upper handguard. I think my rifle barrel length is a possible match.

[cantgrowup]

I forgot to mention that I can't see any cartouches or markings on the stock.

My barrel is 22".