A very late 3rd Model Winder Musket

[waterman]

Someone (BR?) asked about my other rifles. I showed you my Bannerman Krag. This one is very much Krag related. "Winder Muskets" were marketed by Winchester after the Army's Chief of Ordnance had ordered that Krags with Stevens-Pope barrels be converted back to standard Krags.

Winchester hired Capt. Charles Winder, Ohio National Guard, to redesign the Model 1885 Single Shot High Wall Musket, then made with Hotchkiss sights, into a training rifle suitable for the National Guard. Winder's 1st Model replaced the Hotchkiss rear sight with the 1901 Krag sight. The front sight became a post type fitted into a 3/8" dovetail slot. The original Winchester Musket had two barrel bands holding the forearm in place. Winder's redesign used only one band. The 2nd Model Winder moved the 1901 sight to the rear, right against the receiver ring. There were about 3,000 1st and 2nd Model Winders made. Those made before 1908 have the hammer driven by a flat spring. Those made in 1908 or later have the hammer driven by twin coil springs. Those paid for with Army funds are stamped US with an Ordnance flaming bomb on the upper tang, just behind the hammer.

The Second Model was used until the US entry into WW1 and the adoption of the Model 1917 rifle. The Winder was redesigned (3rd Model) to duplicate the US Model 1917s sight pattern. The front sight was retained, but the new barrels were not drilled & tapped for barrel sights. Instead, a Lyman receiver sight adjustable for windage & elevation was fastened to the right side of the action with 4 machine screws. Ugly, but the mount worked. The Winders were all built on High Wall actions. Third Model receivers were ground down to Low Wall dimensions to make the rifles easier to load. Many folks think these are Low Wall Winchesters, but that ain't so. Get your calipers and compare. Winchester made 3 batches of 3rd Model Winders, with just over 3,000 rifles in each batch. WW1 ended before the final batch was completed. All the last batch parts belonged to the Ordnance Dept. Winchester bought them back as scrap steel and hastily assembled as many rifles as possible. These "parts" rifles are very rough to operate compared with other Winchester Single Shots. This is one of the last batch, with a SN very close to the highest known, dating from 1920 or 1921. It's a clunker to operate but as accurate as any. The half-stock is a Winchester product, but few are known.

[waterman]

The very late 3rd Model Winder shown here is "US" marked. All the Winders (any Model) I have seen are marked "22 Short", but have 1:20 rifling twist. I understand that some were made in .22 Long Rifle, with 16" twist barrels, but I've never seen one. Just because the rifles are marked "22 Short" does not mean that they can only be used with Shorts. They were designed to shoot almost any .22 rimfire available between 1904 and the middle 1920s. Military ammo procurement was almost certainly a PITA. Accurate shelf life was short, ammo was cheap, and the National Guard instructors used whatever they could find that worked well.

I've never tried either of the Automatics and I doubt they would fit, nor would WRFs or Magnums, but the Winders will shoot anything from BB Caps to Long Rifles. 2 weeks ago, I shot this rifle with Polish military-surplus Shorts, with CCI Target Shorts, with CCI HV Hollow Point Shorts and with Remington "Golden Bullet" plated Long Rifle Hollow Points. CCI Target Shorts were best at 25 yards, but the others were acceptable. Less wonderful were some Lapua "Super Club" Standard Velocity Long Rifles. Their bullets tipped going through the target paper.

3rd Model Winders received hard treatment as training rifles during 1917-1919. One way or another, many were knocked over or fell. More often than not, when they fell, they landed on the rear sight. The bar holding the sight and the windage adjusting mechanism was & is easily damaged. 100+ years later, most of them are damaged. When in good shape, the sight picture is just like that of the Model 1917, which was the pattern for the sights on the M-1 and the M-14.

[butlersrangers]

Thanks Waterman for the additional information on Winder .22 cal. rifles.

[butlersrangers]

Cody Firearms museum display:

[waterman]

The museum photos are of a 3rd Model Winder. To me, SN indicates late 1918 production. Is the barrel marked "22 Short"? Is the rear of the action & upper tang marked "U S" with Ordnance flaming bomb? Most of them were.

The "parts rifles" are "clunky" to operate when compared with original production rifles. To me, that is the defining characteristic.

[butlersrangers]

Waterman - I can't answer those fine points. That's one of the downsides to museum displays.

(p.s. - I gotta get me a Winder Musket)!