A very late 3rd Model Winder Musket
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:48 pm
Someone (BR?) asked about my other rifles. I showed you my Bannerman Krag. This one is very much Krag related. "Winder Muskets" were marketed by Winchester after the Army's Chief of Ordnance had ordered that Krags with Stevens-Pope barrels be converted back to standard Krags.
Winchester hired Capt. Charles Winder, Ohio National Guard, to redesign the Model 1885 Single Shot High Wall Musket, then made with Hotchkiss sights, into a training rifle suitable for the National Guard. Winder's 1st Model replaced the Hotchkiss rear sight with the 1901 Krag sight. The front sight became a post type fitted into a 3/8" dovetail slot. The original Winchester Musket had two barrel bands holding the forearm in place. Winder's redesign used only one band. The 2nd Model Winder moved the 1901 sight to the rear, right against the receiver ring. There were about 3,000 1st and 2nd Model Winders made. Those made before 1908 have the hammer driven by a flat spring. Those made in 1908 or later have the hammer driven by twin coil springs. Those paid for with Army funds are stamped US with an Ordnance flaming bomb on the upper tang, just behind the hammer.
The Second Model was used until the US entry into WW1 and the adoption of the Model 1917 rifle. The Winder was redesigned (3rd Model) to duplicate the US Model 1917s sight pattern. The front sight was retained, but the new barrels were not drilled & tapped for barrel sights. Instead, a Lyman receiver sight adjustable for windage & elevation was fastened to the right side of the action with 4 machine screws. Ugly, but the mount worked. The Winders were all built on High Wall actions. Third Model receivers were ground down to Low Wall dimensions to make the rifles easier to load. Many folks think these are Low Wall Winchesters, but that ain't so. Get your calipers and compare. Winchester made 3 batches of 3rd Model Winders, with just over 3,000 rifles in each batch. WW1 ended before the final batch was completed. All the last batch parts belonged to the Ordnance Dept. Winchester bought them back as scrap steel and hastily assembled as many rifles as possible. These "parts" rifles are very rough to operate compared with other Winchester Single Shots. This is one of the last batch, with a SN very close to the highest known, dating from 1920 or 1921. It's a clunker to operate but as accurate as any. The half-stock is a Winchester product, but few are known.
Winchester hired Capt. Charles Winder, Ohio National Guard, to redesign the Model 1885 Single Shot High Wall Musket, then made with Hotchkiss sights, into a training rifle suitable for the National Guard. Winder's 1st Model replaced the Hotchkiss rear sight with the 1901 Krag sight. The front sight became a post type fitted into a 3/8" dovetail slot. The original Winchester Musket had two barrel bands holding the forearm in place. Winder's redesign used only one band. The 2nd Model Winder moved the 1901 sight to the rear, right against the receiver ring. There were about 3,000 1st and 2nd Model Winders made. Those made before 1908 have the hammer driven by a flat spring. Those made in 1908 or later have the hammer driven by twin coil springs. Those paid for with Army funds are stamped US with an Ordnance flaming bomb on the upper tang, just behind the hammer.
The Second Model was used until the US entry into WW1 and the adoption of the Model 1917 rifle. The Winder was redesigned (3rd Model) to duplicate the US Model 1917s sight pattern. The front sight was retained, but the new barrels were not drilled & tapped for barrel sights. Instead, a Lyman receiver sight adjustable for windage & elevation was fastened to the right side of the action with 4 machine screws. Ugly, but the mount worked. The Winders were all built on High Wall actions. Third Model receivers were ground down to Low Wall dimensions to make the rifles easier to load. Many folks think these are Low Wall Winchesters, but that ain't so. Get your calipers and compare. Winchester made 3 batches of 3rd Model Winders, with just over 3,000 rifles in each batch. WW1 ended before the final batch was completed. All the last batch parts belonged to the Ordnance Dept. Winchester bought them back as scrap steel and hastily assembled as many rifles as possible. These "parts" rifles are very rough to operate compared with other Winchester Single Shots. This is one of the last batch, with a SN very close to the highest known, dating from 1920 or 1921. It's a clunker to operate but as accurate as any. The half-stock is a Winchester product, but few are known.