Would You Accept the Krag In 1892?

[Dick Hosmer]

Grerat discussion! I'm sure the Lee had its' weak points, but, had we been smart, I believe they could have all been worked out by SA in the ten years +/- that elapsed between the 1882 trials and the advent of the Krag.

Just put a Lee, side by side with a TD and visualize what we could have had . . . Same cartridge, same sights, same ballistics, 5 more shots at a moment's notice, etc.

But then, we wouldn't have had this group . . . . . .

[butlersrangers]

I agree Dick. I was a proponent for the "Lee-Speed" back at the beginning of this thread.
The Ordnance Department prejudices and criteria doomed some superior magazine systems, but also weeded out some very bad ones!

I also thought that the Remington model 1897, No. 5 "smokeless" action Rolling-Block rifle, would have been great for State National Guard regiments, in .30-40 caliber!
Simple - Fast - Inexpensive - with good ergonomics! "Support the U.S. Arms Industry"

[scottz63]

Duh! 1899 was a few years after 1892. LMAO!!! Sorry.

Butlersrangers, those 1899 R-L rifles you have are sweet! The full Military version is beautiful.


Edit: Oh man! A Remington Rolling-Block rifle in 30-40. Now that would be nice!

[Dick Hosmer]

I agree Dick. I was a proponent for the "Lee-Speed" back at the beginning of this thread.
The Ordnance Department prejudices and criteria doomed some superior magazine systems, but also weeded out some very bad ones! [1]

I also thought that the Remington model 1897, No. 5 "smokeless" action Rolling-Block rifle, would have been great for State National Guard regiments, in .30-40 caliber!
Simple - Fast - Inexpensive - with good ergonomics! "Support the U.S. Arms Industry"

[1] Like the Chaffee-Reece! I have a very nice example, w/complete magazine parts, and it functions perfectly in my den, but what a Rube Goldberg idea to take to the field.

[butlersrangers]

Dick, here is a rifle submitted by U.S. Army Officer/Inventors Livermore & Russell, in 1882.

I believe it is a Chaffee-Reece action, with a Livermore-Russell "hopper-magazine", attached to the side.

Livermore and Russell had numerous magazine patents in the U.S.
In fact, they probably envisioned every possible way cartridges could be fed into a mechanism,
including 'charger' devices, and put a myriad of descriptions in their patents.

They later claimed that the Krag magazine infringed on their patents and filed unsuccessful lawsuits against the U.S. government and Ole Johannes Krag
and the Kongsberg Arms factory.

(BTW - Russell also invented the 'bore-mirror' for the 'Trapdoor' Springfield).

Attached are photos of a couple of their submissions for 1882 (Chaffee-Reece?) and 1892 (on a Lee action). Also, Russell's bore mirror patent drawing.

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, that's a C-R, cant miss that bolt handle, but what a mess! Not hard to see why they lost the lawsuit, either.

[butlersrangers]

Capt. Andrew Howland Russell and Capt. William Livermore were very industrious U.S. Army Officers and close friends.

Capt. Russell was tasked with setting up the Army/Ordnance Department displays at Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1888, and at the Columbian Exposition in Chicago, in 1892-1893.
He was very knowledgeable and 'tinkered' a lot' with guns. You gotta love the guy and his "better mouse traps"!

Deep in the bowels of the Springfield Armory Museum is a captured Spanish Mauser, that Capt. Russell altered to a 'straight-pull' rifle of sorts!

[Knute1]

Lt. General Miles was the Army leader prior to the Spanish-American War. He was totally against the Krag-Jorgensen design, even trying to shut down the manufacture of it in favor of the Lee straight-pull just three days before the beginning of that war. He also wanted to obtain the Winchester Model 1895 lever actions and favored them over the Krag. I've posted this magazine article before, but this gives testimony of Gen. Miles almost rabid desire to replace the Krag. If you don't want to read the full article go to page 102, second column and start at the first full paragraph.

In no way am I trying to disparage the Krag or dampen anybodies view of it. Again, just giving some background long forgotten or considered. Everything did not come up roses when it was adopted and for some years later. However, as BR stated earlier, the soldiers seemed to "love" it. The main complaint early on from soldiers that used it was the none adjustable windage sights, which was later corrected with the Model 1898 in different itterations.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ai ... frontcover

[kragluver2]

The Lee probably should have been adopted in the 1880s and upgraded in the 90s. I have read that Lee got crossways with Army Ordnance over contracts dating back to the Civil War. Army Ordnance may have had it in for Lee and a rifle of his design would not be picked. Politics.

During the 1892 trials, the Lee, Mauser and Krag were the three finalists based on the testing criteria set forth by the board.

[Knute1]

Lee Speed trial report:

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Krag-Jorgensen #5 trial report:

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