Krag Collectors Association Forum

Can anyone post a picture of a School Rifle that has the box letters J.F.C. stock cartouche like the one that was stamped over its original script JSA cartouche on my full length 1898 Rifle?

I’ve been searching back through post that talk about schools rifles, and I’ve read that they may have had this cartouche on them but I couldn’t find any pictures of one to be able to compare it to the one that’s on my rifle (pic below).
Thanks!

FWIW - I don't own a 'School Rifle' and have seen more suspect ones, than real ones.

To add to the confusion, "Philippine Constabulary carbines" and "School Rifles" are both technically, a "United States magazine carbine, model of 1899, adapted for knife bayonet and gun sling".
This category of arms were not made for the U.S. Military. They were made by request and sold to the Philippine Constabulary and Private Military - High Schools.
They are physically identical.

Current belief is that most of the Constabulary rifles were fabricated at the Manila Ordnance Depot, (MOD). They are believed to have been later destroyed, possibly 'dumped at sea'. (Mallory gives MOD PC rifle production at 4,980). It is likely only three or less have survived.
(FWIW - I can't help but note that some Krag cavalry carbines were put in the hands of Philippine Scouts, performing at the 1904 - St. Louis World's Fair).

Simultaneous with the PC request for a shorter rifle was a Girard College (Philadelphia) request for a short rifle for High School age boys. These arms were likely fabricated at Springfield Armory (4,074) and Rock Island (613), according to Frank Mallory. These short rifles likely have a J.F.C. stamp.

PC rifles and School rifles were made from model 1899 carbines, (and likely some 1898 carbines), restocked with altered rifle stocks, during the 1906 to 1915 period.

That’s what I was reading that there’s so many that are faked and I was hoping to see an example of one that people thought was real.

Hammer, It's also important to point out that not all school rifles are stamped with the J.F.C. cartouche! I have a couple that are not stamped J.F.C. but are good examples of school rifles overall. It has been determined that official, real, Philippine Constabulary rifles from Manila are not stamped J.F.C. despite what some references specify. They are stamped M.O.D. for Manila Ordnance Depot.

Frank Mallory and William Brophy both wrote a chapter on the Philippine Constabulary/School Rifles in their Krag books.

The chapters throw some light, but, also create some confusion, at least in my mind, on the subject.

Brophy shows pictures of a Springfield Armory produced short rifle with a J.F.C. cartouche, (likely a School Rifle), that he confusingly captions as a "Philippine Constabulary Carbine".

I think the important criteria in identifying a Krag School Rifle is that the receiver, barrel, rear-sight, and front-sight blade, are 1899 carbine (or maybe 1898 carbine) components.
The quality of the work on the altered rifle stock, and the 'stretching' of the front barrel-band with an arbor, should be first rate and not crude.

I agree with 'Whig', legitimate School Rifle stocks will probably vary in their markings. They were fabricated from altered rifle stocks beginning in 1906, (probably refurbished and likely not new stocks). They may even lack a cartouche or have earlier markings.

My "school gun" - which I believe to be authentic - has the same small [JFC} cartouche as is shown in the first photo in this thread. I have seen others with normal [JSA/date] stamps. As to overstamps, my 1892/96 rifle has [BA-WJ] over an illegible JSA cartouche.

butlersrangers wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:16 am Frank Mallory and William Brophy both wrote a chapter on the Philippine Constabulary/School Rifles in their Krag books.

The chapters throw some light, but, also create some confusion, at least in my mind, on the subject.

Brophy shows pictures of a Springfield Armory produced short rifle with a J.F.C. cartouche, (likely a School Rifle), that he confusingly captions as a "Philippine Constabulary Carbine".

I think the important criteria in identifying a Krag School Rifle is that the receiver, barrel, rear-sight, and front-sight blade, are 1899 carbine (or maybe 1898 carbine) components.
The quality of the work on the altered rifle stock, and the 'stretching' of the front barrel-band with an arbor, should be first rate and not crude.

I agree with 'Whig', legitimate School Rifle stocks will probably vary in their markings. They were fabricated from altered rifle stocks beginning in 1906, (probably refurbished and likely not new stocks). They may even lack a cartouche or have earlier markings.

Thanks all !
That Brophy’s picture is what I was looking for, and the date associated with his work on these stocks during the 1906 to 1915 window helps to give me a timeframe for when he may have my stamped his JFC cartouche on my 1902 built Krag rifle.

Your post made me dig out my copy of Brophy’s Springfield 1903 Rifles and on page 569 under the listing of ordinance inspection and repair, he has a number of pictures of M1903’s stock cartouches and here’s one where he shows a box JFC stamped over the top of the earlier JSA script cartouche.
Of the 30 or so pictures that he shows of all the different inspectors stamps, this is the only one that I see that shows what appears to be a purposeful overstamp by one inspector over another with this one being JFC over JSA, which is what was done on my Krag.

Possible germ of the idea of issuing carbine length Krags to people of small stature.

Full-length rifles proved very awkward for Filipinos serving in the U.S. Scouts and the Philippine Constabulary. 'Trapdoor' carbines were a good stopgap.

Initially, The Philippine Scouts, at the 1904 - St. Louis World's Fair, were armed with U.S. Model 1873 Springfield carbines.
Later at the Fair, they were issued Krag Cavalry carbines.

Around 1904-05 a number of Krag Cavalry carbines were issued to the Philippine Constabulary and proved very practical for the bantam sized Filipinos Constables.
The only shortcomings were the carbine's lack of provision for fixing a bayonet and sling.
This generated requests from the PC, and possibly an even earlier request, from Girard College for carbines fitted with rifle style stocks.

Since the introduction of the 'short' model 1903 Springfield rifle was making the Krag cavalry carbine obsolete, reworking Krag carbines into short rifles to sell to the Constabulary and Military Schools, starting in 1906, was a "Win-Win" situation for the U.S. Ordnance Department.

Here are a couple of photos of my school gun. I believe it to be all original and correct but would appreciate any comments: